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BabySchimmerlos

First "service" by a beginner - couple of questions and observations

Question

Hello there,

I thought this would be a better place to post, since it not really is a walkthrough, more like a stumble through.

I dissembled two other watches before and it kept me going, ie. buying beginner equipment for dissembling, cleaning and reassembling. The watch this post is about is a Kienzle with a 051N/53 movement (for more info see: Movement @ ranfft.de). Probably a very basic, robust an cheap movement with NO (sic!) jewels. I got it from an ebay auction in search of watches I can play with. It came in a lot of four watches and the lot cost me EUR 20 in total.

Since I understood that a timegrapher ist quiet essential to estimate the quality of a watch but didn't want to spend the money - yet -  for a hardware version I bought the watchtuner timegrapher app. It gets some data out of the watch but I don't know how well estimated it is in your community.

Disassembly

First a couple of pictures. I will begin with two timegrapher results before disassembling, yet it ist probably unfair since I took only 1302 samples (ie. klicks). And I couldn't find anything about the lift angle.

592b1961d0ad7_KienzleTimegrapher-3.jpg.93bb364b2348436a62256888e078ccae.jpg592b19626eff5_KienzleTimegrapher-4.jpg.6754a1ad2f8cce3e5ad0d1ecc211d81e.jpg

592b196e70315_Kienzle-1.jpg.2a828af9966c7fe2adbfbb2736be7157.jpg

592b196f35ed6_Kienzle-2.jpg.a2cc4d5e1d5effa5585c447b75710349.jpg

592b196fe3b78_Kienzle-3.jpg.5a849500725066c4d6da4c1265c6f240.jpg

592b1970bdbb8_Kienzle-4.jpg.e5268e93c7733cc5ee9fe12ac3e72c8f.jpg

 

This is the "pallet" fork.

592b197189bba_Kienzle-5.jpg.c0f8c399ff01fb678d0f6599dfdbae4b.jpg

592b19722e106_Kienzle-6.jpg.c5cee50bccf87dcda87839d9324d82e0.jpg

In my rookie-opinion there is quiet some wear on the rocker bar:

592b1972e7e92_Kienzle-7.jpg.147d18472d0401165a1cb26712ff01e3.jpg592b1973c117d_Kienzle-8.jpg.aceebd6768d38fa2440ed7eff326cc62.jpg

 

Cleaning

As a beginner I searched for an affordable cleaning setup. So I bought a cheap US-Cleaner at Amazon, as for the ammonia based cleaning solution I bought Elma 1:9 concentrate, and for the rinse I got Elma Suprol pro. I have two laboratory-quality glasses, one for the Elma 1:9 and one for the Suprol pro. I put the watch parts in a tea mesh and this mesh first into the glass with 1:9 and then into the glass with Suprol pro. I let the US-Cleaner run for four minutes respectively. After that I let the parts dry on paper. 

Reassembly

As for the oiling I am fully aware that there are Moebius Oils and Greases. Yet to get a feel without spending to much at first I opted for Dr Tillwich Etsyntha Sorte 1-3 as the oil and Dr Tillwich B52 as grease. I did so because in a German watch repair book I saw this table (in German).

In the following pictures you will get an impression of the cleaned parts and the reassembly in general. The last screenshots are from the timegrapher app AFTER the reassembly and oiling, movement out of the case, dial up position. "Regulating" (hope this is the right term) I found quiet difficult, since it was hard to move the regulating pin in a precise manner. I made about five attempts and stopped when I got by far the best results compared to those before. - I personally was rather satisfied with the results for my "first time". Oh, I should add that I had the reassembled movement on a demagnetizer (one of those blue cheap Chinese ones with the red button). Therefore I cannot say wether the improvement is mainly by demagnetizing.

592b1974aa228_Kienzle-9.jpg.465e470c5fb3426324722bc41a0d586c.jpg

Those staines on the main bridge (picture above) have NOT been there before.

592b197570ff4_Kienzle-10.jpg.fce905a54c03cb785d7d09f45040e20f.jpg

592b19765715b_Kienzle-11.jpg.dadef74a83610afab3f0a866f0799928.jpg

592b1978600b1_Kienzle-12.jpg.72a41d6311853d01af07090ec7747329.jpg

592b197a1359f_Kienzle-13.jpg.d48d8194156dab3b9c565da6de0250b6.jpg

592b2ab449f72_KienzleTimegrapher-1.jpg.86bc56cd815e7409cd18b0a3594b8975.jpg

592b1e91559eb_KienzleTimegrapher-2.jpg.a263320eb50faa3e6c020673693d6f13.jpg

 

Questions

So if any of you would like to comment on something shown or described - I'd be glad. Also I have come across some questions and if anyone would like to comment on those I would also greatly appreciate.

  • Dial: I left it alone but wondered whether I could do anything besides some Rodico to get rid of at least some of those stains.
  • Stains after cleaning: As mentioned I wondered what I could have done wrong with the cleaning that resulted in these stains. Should I have rinsed it one more time in Suprol Pro? Or where do these stains come from. You may also note, that the balance and pallet fork cocks have changed color.
  • Mainspring: While I disassembled the mainspring barrel (the mainspring was attached to the ratchet wheel and there was no such thing as a barrel arbor), I didn't put the mainspring in the cleaning machine but wiped it once with a paper tissue. Would you US-clean the mainspring too in general? Does it depend on the movement? - And is there any lubrication recommended for manual wind mainsprings? I didn't lubricate there at all.
  • Rocker bar: Whilst it is certainly not worthwhile with such a watch, could this wear of the rocker bar be repaired (e.g. by use of a staking set or by putting in a bearing)?
  • Oil and Grease: If I stick to this hobby I will certainly buy appropriate and recommended Moebius products. In the meantime: Do you think I will cause damage by applying the products above? In my ebay lot there was also a nice ETA movement (optima branded), and even with this movement here I got somehow attached, meaning I wouldn't want to - knowingly - destroy something.

So this is it for my first post. Hope you felt at least little entertained reading it.

BabySchimmerlos

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7 answers to this question

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Dial:There are many different opinions with dials.Some say leave as original and others say replace/ repair. Personally I change the dial if one is available. For high grade vintage watches the dial can be professionally re-furbished but it depends on what the customer is wiling to pay.
Stains after cleaning: Some stains just will not remove I have ben told some stains cane be removed by soaking strong tea which is a mild acid. Personally unless it is visible I leave alone.
Mainspring:I use a L&R cleaning machine and I give the spring a general wipe and then put it through the cleaning machine.  I then run the spring between finger cots lightly lubricated with Moebius 8200 
Rocker bar: Personally I would leave alone unless it was causing issues with the running of the watch.
Oil and Grease:  Probably the most controversial subject in horology. You will not cause damage by not using the recommended lubricants. However be aware  lubricants can spread if too thin so use sparingly. This is something that you will learn with experience.

 

 

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Clockboy gave you some good input. I would add that pin-levers ( I use Moebius 941 on the pins) don't always give clean timegrapher readings, so you've done a good job to get the results you've obtained. Regarding the mainspring, I don't wash it but lubricate it with Moebius 8300 or D5 Microgliss. Stains I would worry about, and the dial is fine with rodico cleaning.  Can you set the lift angle on the timegrapher program you use? The Kienzle should be 57 deg. but that only matters if you want to see the amplitude which I don't see on your post. It looks like it's running  pretty good, although the beat error has increased. Great First!

 

J

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@noirrac1j Thank you very much for your input, too! It is possible to set the lift angle on my timegrapher app and I will try it with 57 degrees. I cut the amplitude readings in the photos since I hadn't a clue about the correct lift angle and thought those readings would only be misleading. (The amplitude was 187° with setting of 50° Lift Angle BEFORE, and 176° with setting of 52° Lift Angle AFTER - the set Lift Angle was not changed by me consciously - must have happend by chance.) But as I said, I will try it with 57°.

Concerning the stains on the main bridge: You wrote that this is worrisome, and I agree since I would like to know what I could have done during cleaning to avoid them with future movements. Any idea about it? I wondered whether it was about the material of the bridge, yet I could only guess that it is made of brass - or brass coated?

Again, thanks a lot for your response and your encouraging words!

BabySchimmerlos

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@noirrac1j Thank you very much for your input, too! It is possible to set the lift angle on my timegrapher app and I will try it with 57 degrees. I cut the amplitude readings in the photos since I hadn't a clue about the correct lift angle and thought those readings would only be misleading. (The amplitude was 187° with setting of 50° Lift Angle BEFORE, and 176° with setting of 52° Lift Angle AFTER - the set Lift Angle was not changed by me consciously - must have happend by chance.) But as I said, I will try it with 57°.

Concerning the stains on the main bridge: You wrote that this is worrisome, and I agree since I would like to know what I could have done during cleaning to avoid them with future movements. Any idea about it? I wondered whether it was about the material of the bridge, yet I could only guess that it is made of brass - or brass coated?

Again, thanks a lot for your response and your encouraging words!

BabySchimmerlos

The mainplate looks like brass,and the stains are probably caused by oxidation due to moisture at some point, but there isn't much to do now. The Elma solution you used is good stuff, but maybe next time you can use an old soft toothbrush to get the more stubborn stains out. I use Esscor Oakite BCR Professional Ultrasonic solution and an old Oral-B soft brush and it gets most things super clean and sparkly. In my humble estimation, you've done a good job as is. Looking forward to the next post.

J

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You mentioned that you left the parts to dry on paper. It is possible that some moisture condensed on the parts, and as @noirrac1j says, that might have caused the staining. Best to use a little bit of heat to help the parts dry, I leave the parts in the baskets and use a hand held hair dryer to gently warm them until they are dry. Even pointing an incandescent bulb at the parts could help.

Have Fun!

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@noirrac1j and @dadistic: I really appreciate your comments! With my next "service" I will definitely change my cleaning procedure. I might add an additional step in the rinse with a fresh glass of Suprol Pro. Maybe the rinse was a bit contaminated by residuals of the water based 9:1 cleaning solution and this water might have caused the stains. And in addition I will add as final step the drying with a hair dryer.

Concerning the additional cleaning with a soft toothbrush - I will keep that in mind. Yet in this case it was less a matter of not having removed preexisting stains but causing stains by the cleaning.

Thanks!

 

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