Regulating a mechanical watch

[Floyd0706]

Hi there,

I was wondering,watching the videos from Marc, how does a watchmaker really regulate a watch. I mean there must be a lot mor to regulating than to just moving a lever on the Oszillator to get the watch ticking in time.

I often read on the watches " regulated to 5 positions " ! How do they do that since every time you move the lever in one position, you also change everything in the other positions! 

And why isn't any information about regulating in positions in the internet? 

I mean is it a big secret passed down only to the next generation?

Greetings to all

Frank

[digginstony]

Hi there,
I was wondering,watching the videos from Marc, how does a watchmaker really regulate a watch. I mean there must be a lot mor to regulating than to just moving a lever on the Oszillator to get the watch ticking in time.
I often read on the watches " regulated to 5 positions " ! How do they do that since every time you move the lever in one position, you also change everything in the other positions! 
And why isn't any information about regulating in positions in the internet? 
I mean is it a big secret passed down only to the next generation? [emoji6]
Greetings to all
Frank

There are 6 positions. Regulating to such, really means observing an acceptable level of timekeeping in all positions. If not work needs to be done on the movement. Timekeeping can be affected if something touches in the escapement or elsewhere whilst in different positions or the movement and it's quality of construction is not adequate to cope with varying positions. As the watch gets older and wear takes place, this can have the same effect as the above.
Also accuracy can be affected by life style, how active you are, and to what extent the watch remains in one position. Quartz movements are not affected in this way as they don't have a balance wheel to cope with different gravitational pulls. But can still be effected by temperature unless "Temperature Controlled "
Obviously some movements are regulated to 5 positions or less or unadjusted. Not that it infers the movement won't be accurate, depends on the quality of construction.

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[Delgetti]

4 hours ago, Floyd0706 said:

And why isn't any information about regulating in positions in the internet? 

There is, but you didn't find it. My favorite link on this topic. 

http://adjustingvintagewatches.com/category/dynamic-posiing.

[StuartBaker104]

You could also take the "squashed tree" approach and buy a copy of Practical watch adjusting by deCarle

https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Practical_Watch_Adjusting.html?id=cDKTPQAACAAJ&redir_esc=y&hl=en

[Floyd0706]

Thanks guys for the very interesting reading! 

As I understand it's less adjusting by pushing a lever , but fixing all other faults like dirty parts.

Thanks. 

Frank

[JohnR725]

On 4/13/2017 at 2:54 PM, Floyd0706 said:

Thanks guys for the very interesting reading! 

As I understand it's less adjusting by pushing a lever , but fixing all other faults like dirty parts.

Thanks. 

Frank

This is why often times a watch comes in for repair where it's all the way on one extreme as somebody's trying to regulate out that the watch needs to be serviced or it's magnetized or it's something else and it didn't work.

Another outstanding book on understanding how I just to adjust a watch is JENDRITZKI Hans, 5786 "Watch Adjustment"  Then the book is available at the link below along with lots of other interesting books.

http://www.booksimonin.ch/

 

 

[jdm]

On 4/12/2017 at 3:25 PM, Floyd0706 said:

I often read on the watches " regulated to 5 positions " ! How do they do that since every time you move the lever in one position, you also change everything in the other positions! 

And why isn't any information about regulating in positions in the internet? 

I mean is it a big secret passed down only to the next generation?

You are correct, positional adjustment is one of the most difficult and less documented areas of watchmaking.

But in some cases newer technology comes to help, if the watch has an Etachron regulator pin, turning it to adjust the HS gap greatly influences positional error.

[digginstony]

I think for most reasonable quality movements a variation of up to 30 seconds between different positions is acceptable except face up or down. You're always going to come across movements that perform far better than this, either through excellence of manufacture or flukes.
The best performing movement to date, that I've seen is a Chinese Seagull ! With a variation of less than 2 seconds between positions, though I expect this to be a fluke or am I being unfair.
Also since acquiring a timegrapher (Cheap one) can't recommend these enough. Even the cheaper kind can give you a positive indication if your watch requires servicing but shouldn't be replaced as part of the recommended service intervals.
Also if you start to get a higher second variation between positions this could be a good indicator of wear within the movement.

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[jdm]

1 hour ago, digginstony said:

The best performing movement to date, that I've seen is a Chinese Seagull ! With a variation of less than 2 seconds between positions, though I expect this to be a fluke or am I being unfair.

I don't think it's casual. I have bought 2x 1812 (TY2661) and they are like 0 spd, plus or minus 3 secs secs in all positions.  

[szbalogh]

Perfect watch adjusting is really time-consuming. As SturatBaker104 suggested starting with that book is a good way. One can only regulate the watch effectively with the regulator arm if the watch is in perfect condition otherwise. Moreover, adjustment start at the mainspring

[jdrichard]

I use both tick-o-tock and wild spectrum on my galaxy note tablet to adjust my watches. This is good for the first shot. Then I wear the watch for a few days and check the daily gain/loss using "timeis" as my time source. I then fine tune the adjustment. This seems to work on must time pieces. I do the same for pocket watches. I find the hamiltons are really accurate; with at lease 17 jewels.


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[JohnR725]

To understand adjusting a watch I have some links below reading material. Plus image from Omega's technical documentation's on what they expect. So Omega publishes the timing specifications for just about everything they make but this section is for watch is older which works nice for us as it's more generic. Even though their listing physical sizes of watches the other thing there showing is the running time. So modern watches tend to run much longer than their predecessors. Modern watches that may run 48 to longer at the end of 24 hours still have really decent amplitudes and their timekeeping is going to be much better than a watch that runs a little over 24 hours.

Then interesting terminology things. Notice on the Hamilton pocket watch it says adjusted. What exactly does that mean? So on American pocket watches it may include things like temperature.. Where is modern watches there is nothing we can do about temperature..

Then the number of positions is an interesting question is what exactly does it mean?  So for pocket watches the positions are slightly different than wristwatches such as normally pocket watches never run crown down. So another image from Omega showing their various positions. Note Rolex only times their watches in five positions. Then the attached PDF from ETA 6497 Showing the number positions is basically based on quality standard grade 2 positions something better three positions.

So for the original question of confusing terminology of what exactly " regulated to 5 positions " We need to look at the pdf Link below labeled labeled X-D-DVH-Di-Im-N_EN. Looking at the very beginning X = mean value rate. So for X the more positions we add in the more closely they have to be if we want to meet whatever timing specifications were trying to achieve. Basically timing in positions regulated in positions just means watch was verified the various positions.

Then a problem. Ever noticed how tech sheets don't really explain everything? Specifically tech sheets for watch repair? This is because it's assumed that the reader of the tech sheet has basic knowledge of watch repair. Then run down to your local bookstore how many books on how to repair an automobile versus how many books on repairing a watch? Repairing watches isn't exactly a dying art but the number of people doing it versus other things is considerably less so the amount of information available is less. Then conceivably at one time especially before timing machines this statement may have been correct  " I mean is it a big secret passed down only to the next generation? " This is because whoever was adjusting the watches before timing machines existed was at the absolute top of the food chain in the watch shop because it did require full knowledge of everything and considerable skill which probably was passed down to the generations.

http://www.witschi.com

 

X-D-DVH-Di-Im-N_EN

SCOPE / BEAT NUMBERS

Test and measuring technology mechanical watches

Witschi Training Course

 

 

 

 

 

 

ETA 6497-1 Manufacturing Information.pdf

[Geo]

Another excellent post John, thank you!

[jdm]

14 hours ago, szbalogh said:

Moreover, adjustment start at the mainspring

Or even before, at the barrel shaft. Many mov.ts simply use holes on the plates for that, which become worn out, quite logically as these are the bearing where the highest torques applies. A perfectionist would place jewels there.