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Hi, I am new to these forums and recently retired from the lubricants industry and now enjoying my new hobby of messing about with watches etc!

 

I see a lot of posts on all forums about lubricants and thought I may be able to help with the basics so giving members a better understanding.   This is a very broad subject so I will try and cover in a series of posts relating to specific areas of lubrication.

I will try and answer any questions but may defer if I will be covering them in a later post.

 

Firstly 'What are the different types of lubricants?'

 

We have fluids (oils), semi-solids (greases and gels); solids

 

Oils can be mineral (hydrocarbon), vegetable, and animal.  Other fluids are generally classed as chemicals or synthasised fluids.

 

Mineral oils are most common nowadays for lubrication but in the past vegetable (olive oil, rapeseed oil etc) and animal (lard, sperm oil, neats foot oil etc) were widely used.  Some vegetable and animal oils are still used in mineral oil blends, especially neats foot oil, to provide special properties such as added lubricity.

 

Refined mineral oils are made from crude oil, the refining process removes many of the 'nasties' to give a range of 'base oils' .  These base oils have an industry range of viscosities and are used as made or blended together to meet industry standard viscosity bands (ISO VG).  To meet specific lubrications needs (hot, cold, high wear, EP, water ingress, cleaning etc etc) chemical and other additives are blended into the basic mineral oil.  Sometimes additives are needed to counteract the effect of some of these additives !!).

 

Synthetic Oils can be based on mineral oil or be chemical compounds.  Strictly speaking synthetic mineral oils should be called synthesised mineral oil as they are made by re-combining hydrocarbon molecules to make bespoke mineral oils.  These are much purer and have better inherent temp, lubricity and oxidation properties, they also need less additives to modify their shortcoming properties.  Ordinary mineral oil has molecule chains (her comes the chemistry!!), short, medium and long.  The shorter the molecule the more volatile (will evaporate quicker) and lower viscosity (thickness, runniness) it has.  The long molecules leave sticky, gummy residues when aged.  The additives help to reduce these effects but they will all happen in time, and so the oil 'goes off'.  Loss of short molecules can lead to oil viscosity increases and degeneration of the long molecules can lead to oil tickening and gums forming.

Synthetic mineral oils can be made to greatly reduce the amount of small and large molecules (called light and heavy ends), so a more stable oil results. Also the natural contaminents of a natural mineral oils (which require additives to control them) are not present.

 

Synthetic Oils based on chemical compounds are also used as specialist lubricants because of their unique properties, but are unlikely to be used in watches etc, but may be used as an additive for very special applications.  They can also be very aggressive to some materials especially rubbers, plastics and paints.

 

I'll post about additives etc in another post.

 

Greases can be thought of as a lubricant retained in a sponge.  The sponge is what is know as the 'soap' and the lubricant can be any of the above 'oils' that are compatible with the soap.  The soap type is again determined by the operating conditions and the degree of specialisation required.  Modern trends are to replace soaps with gelling agents but these have a more limited scope of operating conditions.

 

Solid lubricants are materials that generally plate-out onto the working surfaces and can be applied as they are or suspended in a fluid lubricant.  Typical solid lubricants are graphite, molybdenum disulphide, PTFE etc.  They can cause problems in very tight clearances as they may tend to close them up over time.

 

 

That's it for now, plenty to ponder on.  Hope I haven't bored you too much.  I will carry on with more posts if feed back is posiitive.

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Welcome to forum canthus, what an unusual but educational introduction. This is the place to be if you are really serious about repairing and servicing watches. If you haven't already done so, I suggest that you heck out Mark Lovic's Watch Repair Channel, it's very informative.

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Thanks Geo, Already an ardent follower of Mark and have repaired/restored several watches with help from his videos.  About to service my vintage Omega Seamaster Automatic having just finished a Seiko Pogue full restore.  I thought I could add a bit extra to understanding the background technology for the lubes he (and others) use and advise. 

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Welcome canthus, nice introduction. I like it a lot. I also believe that oiling is not just about oil but about how to go about it. I've recently was able to acquire the required Seiko oils recommended in their tech papers but before I had them, I used what could have been loosely called their Swiss equivalents ( by deduction mainly) and those are working fine. Still a solid knowledge of types and function is essential to lubricate a watch. Thanks for the post.

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Thank you canthus. 

 

I am still starting out and appreciate any and all information anybody cares to post. 

 

I just received my copies of "Practical Watch Repairing" from the recommended reading list as well as "Beginner Watch Making: How to build your very first watch" so my time is mostly spent reading posts like this and the books lately.  Still trying to find a supplier of some decent screwdrivers locally so I literally haven't turned a screw on any of my "donor" watches.

 

Thanks Again,

 

Rossco

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Hi Rossco,

 

I bought originally very cheap screwdrivers from esslinger, but they were wobbly and difficult to use (no quality). I then purchased the Bergeon tips and swapped them. So for about $40sh dollars total I got 8 out of 9 working as they should. The .50 was never good to start with but I don't use it much at this stage. The 2.5 needed a little broadening of the hole but after that it works better than the rest. Just an idea. I got spoiled and started using Bergeon all together but that's just me who am never happy with only one set....

 

I would strongly recommend that you get those inexpensive round, transparent plastic watchmaker trays with lid. (the ones with divided sections, one of them round). Also the Bergeon oiler set (the applicators not the wells) is not expensive but very effective. For the wells, esslinger has a 3 well stand for about $20.

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Hi bobm12, thanks very much for the advice on the screwdrivers.  Very much appreciated.  I never thought of just buying tips for the existing sets I already have.

 

I bought a relatively cheap set and I know what happens to electronics when you don't use the right tools so I don't think I'd even bring this screwdriver set near a watch.  I'm going to hold out for a better set once I find them locally.

 

I'm finding lubricants the most confusing but I'm still learning so everything is confusing!

 

Bergeon, Moebius, Dumont... my wish list is growing!

 

Rossco

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You are welcome Rossco, tips you can mostly exchange. I did with wristband tools of all sorts, including the press type. Sometimes I take a risk, I buy one replacement tip -- after some research -- and try it on the cheap tool I have. Most of the time it works and the tool is considerably upgraded avoiding the need to buy the expensive brand. Sometimes I have to fit the new part and when that happens, most of the time I get a better tool than the expensive brand for much less. It is sort of a gamble and it is also fun.

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You are welcome Rossco, tips you can mostly exchange. I did with wristband tools of all sorts, including the press type. Sometimes I take a risk, I buy one replacement tip -- after some research -- and try it on the cheap tool I have. Most of the time it works and the tool is considerably upgraded avoiding the need to buy the expensive brand. Sometimes I have to fit the new part and when that happens, most of the time I get a better tool than the expensive brand for much less. It is sort of a gamble and it is also fun.

I really like your philosophy of mixing and matching parts of tools, mainly because I'm "frugal" :)

 

Well, lesson learned, I just bought a set of five Bergeron screwdrivers, with interchangeable tips to start, and the cheap set is relegated to my electronics bench.  That just leaves the lubricants and I think I'm going to try and machine a three or four hole oil pot from aluminum.  I'll worry about filling it later with the various oils and greases - once I learn what they are.

 

Rossco

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Would the metal (aluminum) react with/contaminate the oils in a bad way? I've seen those oil wells are made of some crystalline material or of bakelite...Just a thought.

Edited by bobm12
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Would the metal (aluminum) react with/contaminate the oils in a bad way? I've seen those oil wells are made of some crystalline material or of bakelite...Just a thought.

Excellent question and thought.  I'm not sure of the composition of the watch related lubes, if they would be reactive. I'll certainly try and look into it and see if I can find anything.  I wouldn't think they would react with the aluminum... but then again??? 

 

I think its mainly the pots are easier to produce in those materials you mention whereas I can see the aluminum being far costlier to mass produce.

 

I'm off to Google it! :geek:

 

Rossco

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Watch oils are chemically not very complex (think of an engine oil which has to endure far wider range of operating conditions, which is complex).  Most watch oils will contain rust and oxidiation (R&O) inhibitors and probably metal pacifiers (for yellow metals, aluminium, zinc etc).  There may be other additives used which I will try and cover in a seperate post, but these are the basic ones for most oils used for 'lubrication'.  Your aluminium pots should not impart anything to the oil as aluminium oxidises very quickly to give a protective surface for the base metal.  The oils should not 'attack' it unless you are using a very potent EP oil or metalcutting fluid (unlikely!!).  If your oils has a dye in it then this may discolour the oxidised layer but will not affect the oil. Biggest danger to aluminium is water and mild acids which would only be present if there is water present or the oil is very old and oxidised (not what you want in your oiler pot!!). Modern plastics, enamel or glass is more inert if you need more assurance. Trust this helps a little.

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Watch oils are chemically not very complex (think of an engine oil which has to endure far wider range of operating conditions, which is complex).  Most watch oils will contain rust and oxidiation (R&O) inhibitors and probably metal pacifiers (for yellow metals, aluminium, zinc etc).  There may be other additives used which I will try and cover in a seperate post, but these are the basic ones for most oils used for 'lubrication'.  Your aluminium pots should not impart anything to the oil as aluminium oxidises very quickly to give a protective surface for the base metal.  The oils should not 'attack' it unless you are using a very potent EP oil or metalcutting fluid (unlikely!!).  If your oils has a dye in it then this may discolour the oxidised layer but will not affect the oil. Biggest danger to aluminium is water and mild acids which would only be present if there is water present or the oil is very old and oxidised (not what you want in your oiler pot!!). Modern plastics, enamel or glass is more inert if you need more assurance. Trust this helps a little.

This helps a lot canthus, thank you!  The  only thing I could find was a warning about not storing oil in anything galvanized - presumably anything zinc coated - as this can precipitate solids in the oil which I bet would jam up the works.  The only other possibility would be the high sulfur cutting oils I use in my hobby machine shop to machine the aluminum.  Likely not a problem either as the parts will be well cleaned before use.

 

Thanks very much for the additional concise information canthus.

 

Rossco 

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Hi Rossco, You only need sulphurised or chlorinated cutting fluids for steels etc. Using these on aluminium or yellow metals can cause staining.  Aluminium can often be machined dry but commonly a water mix emulsion with highish oil content is better.  Aluminium when hot expands a lot, so the aim is to keep the machining process cool so that accurate dimensions are kept.  A simple oil is also useful especially if you do not have a continuous cutting fluid supply system, the thinner the better (paraffin is often used but watch the temps!).  Tools must be sharp and feeds not too light for best effect.

Yes, galvanised items can cause problems, we used to have these problems with galvanised pipework in industrial oil distribution systems and only recommended galvanising on the outside of the pipes, or better still, stainless steel.

Oh the fun of lubricants, eh!!

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Hi Rossco, You only need sulphurised or chlorinated cutting fluids for steels etc. Using these on aluminium or yellow metals can cause staining.  Aluminium can often be machined dry but commonly a water mix emulsion with highish oil content is better.  Aluminium when hot expands a lot, so the aim is to keep the machining process cool so that accurate dimensions are kept.  A simple oil is also useful especially if you do not have a continuous cutting fluid supply system, the thinner the better (paraffin is often used but watch the temps!).  Tools must be sharp and feeds not too light for best effect.

Yes, galvanised items can cause problems, we used to have these problems with galvanised pipework in industrial oil distribution systems and only recommended galvanising on the outside of the pipes, or better still, stainless steel.

Oh the fun of lubricants, eh!!

Thanks again canthus.  You're spot on with the paraffin (kerosene or even WD40 in a pinch) and aluminum.  I actually use it (the kersosene/paraffin) and a slight amount of the sulfurised cutting oil mixed in when machining aluminum along with a carbide cutter - works great.  Full strength on steel the straight sulfer based cutting oil I have works fine. 

 

I'm finding that trying to locate a source here in Canada for the watch lubes to be a little sketchy and think I may have to resort to ordering from the US if need be.

 

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.

 

Rossco

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Hello Canthus,

 

Thanks for the info and it explains to some extent some of the puzzles I face as an amateur.  The main Player for us is probably Moebius and I had thought that the sheer quantity of different watch oils and greases was really just clever marketing - the range is incredible.  I am about to purchase new stock of 9010,9020,8030 and 941 and quite frankly the cost is making my eyes water especially for the quantities provided.

Perhaps I am being harsh as the R&D costs must be high and the product is good, but even so, some of the line have been around for quite some time and you would think that with improved technology some of the production costs would have decreased, cost is definitely a negative factor with products from that particular firm, unless I am looking for supplies in the wrong places.

Luckily the Bulova instructions for the 11ANACB (new project) mention the oils needed and where to put them,they were written about 35+ years ago so Hobbyists like myself are guided toward what is needed and where to put it.  Also luckily, the advice on this forum is excellent and I am glad you joined up to further enhance the knowledge base.

As for me I am trying to work out how to tell my lovely and adorable wife that I need to spend about £68.00 on roughly a spoonful or 8ml of oily greasy stuff.

Cheers, Vic

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Thanks for all your interest.  Fortunately the amatuer only needs very small amounts of lubricant so just tell the other half its a cosmetic, like they buy at often very high prices!!!

 

I thought I would broach the next aspect of lubricants, that being what is added to a base oil to make the various lubricants to cover a wide range of duties.

 

So What Additives are used

 

I will cover these in general terms as the chemisty can be quite daunting and even I have to 'phone a friend' on many occassions!

 

Ok, additives are required to modify or enhance a base oils natural properties to meet the desired operating conditions.  Generally, the more severe the operating conditions, or, the lower the quality or specification of the base oil,  then the more additives are required.

 

Lubricants for watches clearly do not need the same performance additives used in engine oils, extreme climatic conditions, and severe stress conditions to name few.

 

Corrosion inhibitors - these are used as you would imagine to prevent rusting of iron/steels but also to prevent oxidation etc of non-ferrous metals (copper, bronze, aluminium, silver etc). Virtually every lubricating oil will have these to some degree.

 

Anti-oxidants - these are to slow down the natural oxidation of the base oil which occurs over time and which can be accelerated by such things as sunlight, high temps, oxidising agents etc.  Virtually all lubricants contain these additives, more so with ordinary mineral oils than synhtetic mineral oils (I'll call these shc oils (synthesised hydro-carbons) from now for simplicity.

 

Oilness/Lubricity - these are often used to further reduce friction (ie more slipery) by modifying the surfaces of the lubricating surfaces.  They can be chemical compounds but an old favourite is neats foot oil.  Again these are more likely to be found in normal mineral oils as shc's have more inherent oilness/lubricity.

 

Viscosity Improvers - These are basically long chain polymers (I know, chemistry again!) which will enable an oil to stay thicker as the operating temperature rises.  They are widely used in engine oils (more commonly known as multigrading) and can be found in some high performance hydraulic oils. They are usually added to a 'thin' oil to increase viscosity.  They will degrade (they get chopped -up basically) and so the 'multigrade' oil will slowly revert to the base monograde oil.  Example a 5W/40 engine oil starts as a base oil meeting the 5W (w=winter!, 0degC) specification and is multigraded to meet the 40 (summer, 100C) specification, and will degrade to the 5W (ie it will be 5W/30, 5W/20 etc over time).  Some mineral watch oils have these where they are required to operate in say artic or desert conditions.

 

Pour Point Depressants - can be considered the oposite of viscosity improvers. They lower the point at which an oil becomes fluid.  Fluidity is lost as the natural waxes in a mineral oil solidify ( a bit like the wrong diesel fuel in winter!!).  They are normally only required if low operating conditions (arctic say), are likely or used for high viscosity oils. Not normally required in shc oils, and are more likely to be required if low quality base oils are used.  Can be found in special purpose watch oils.

 

Anti-Wear - These are used when the the layer of oil maybe getting a bit thin and a little extra protection in required and not to be confused with extreme pressure (EP) additives.  These basically modify the surfaces to allow easier transitions (best described as adding a (carpet) pile to the surfaces).  The most common of these is called ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate, more chemistry!!).  Sometimes found in watch oils where a bit more oomph than straight oil is required.

 

Extreme Pressure (EP) - these are added to handle matters when the oil film breaks down and metal to metal contact occures.  If you look at a section of a surface under a microscope it looks like a craggy mountain range (less craggy the better the finish).  Consider two of these ranges on top of each other peak-to-peak.  When the peaks collide they try to weld together due to the very high temps (melting point of steel!).  The EP additives are based on sulphur, phosphorous and sometimes chlorine compounds which will 'become fluid' at high temps and so provide the 'lubricating medium' and prevent welding.

These additives only work when the above conditions occur, and will be inactive and not needed if this is unlikely to occur.  Hence they are used in rubbing, sliding and high load conditions in a watch.  Watch oils will not have anything like the additive level found in automotive/industrial applications. Highly potent types would probably cause severe staining of watch parts (so don't go to Halfords for it!!).

 

Colour Dyes - do nothing for lubrication but can help identification and leak tracing.  Mostly for fashion or branding statement!!

 

The above are the most common types used in watch oils, a brief list of others shows how many others are used in industrial applications.

 

Detergent/Surfactant - these are added to keep parts clean to avoid gumming etc.  Normally found in engine oils and high temp applications.  Have seen in watch oil but normally used in oil circulating systems.

Dispersants - these are added to hold in suspension, the stuff  removed by the detergent until it can be removed by a filter (not seen a watch with an oil filter yet!!).

Wetting Agent - helps the oils to spread, definitely not for watches!

Acid Neutralisers - engine combustions and severe oxidation produces acids, these help to neutralise these acids (sometimes call TBN improvers). Not needed for watch oils.

Emulsifiers - make the oil soluble in water.  Sometimes used in cooling systems where antifreeze is not required.  Have their own set of problems and not used in watch oils.

Stick/Slip - basically a special type of lubricity additive to reduce the effects of a surface holding onto a part until it suddenly goes.  A bit like the effect desired of an autowinder mainspring action.  Mainly used in workshops on machine beds.

Solids - Moly, graphite etc.  Normally used when normal lubrication cannot handle operating requirements, and are in suspension and normally plate-out on the component parts.  Can reduce very tight tolerances to a detrimental level.  Graphite will conduct electricity.

 

Many of the above are also used in base oil for greases for the same reasons, the grease just holding the oil in place or reserve.

 

As they are chemical compounds, as always there cab be a range of quality.  Blenders will also have cost considerations re quality and quantity used in their oils.

 

I am sure I have missed some, so if you have a particular bug, reply to my post and I'll try and help.

 

Got to stop now (thats if your still awake!) as my fingers ache! Hope I haven't bored you too much.

 

I'll cover what the 'numbers' mean later and also whats in the more popular watch oils and greases.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi,  Thought I'd move on a bit more and talk about What the Numbers Mean.

 

Lubricants can be called anything they like, and with specialist lubes the number in a grade name can have no meaning at all except for distinguishing one lube from another in a range.  My old company used to have a register and we just took the next number in that for the grade name untill it was fully commercialised and then some even kept that number!

 

Most industrial lubes now follow the ISO VG nomenclature, which is a 'brand name' followed by the 'ISO VG viscosity', eg Canthus 46 would be grade name Canthus with viscosity at 40 degC of 46 centistokes (cSt).  Using this method at least the oil thickness/runniness can be compared, if not the other properties.  The 'brand name' can often identify what type of lubricant it is (ie hydrailic, EP gear, turbine etc) and its major additives and performance levels.

 

So what is viscosity ?  This is a measure of the shearability or runniness of an oil and can be considered as the ability to forma lubrication film and/or flow through a bearing.

There are several ways to measure it (ie measuring shear forces for dynamic visc and flow through an orifice for kinetic visc) but the most common units are poise/centiposie (dynamic) and stokes/centistokes (kinetic).  The latter is the former multilied by the specific gravity (SG) of the oil.  For most mineral oils this is about 0.85-0.95 and for SHC oil about 0.95-1.05, so for the degree of error involved, centipoise can be considered near enough to be centistokes when comparing oil viscosity (the purist will argue otherwise but at the user level it hardly matters).   You may also see older units of viscosity such as Redwood, Saybolt etc.  There are conversion charts for these (and now websites) but as they are measured using different temperatures, they need to be treated with care so they are compared at the same temps. 

The ISO VG viscosity has a small viscosity range either side of the number.  The main numbers are 5, 10, 15, 22, 32, 46, 68, 100, 150, 220, 320, 460, 680, 1000 and others higher, 77 is also used but is not a true ISO VG.  But these are at 40decC which is bit hot for a watch in normal use!  Therefore you often see the viscosity quoted for 20decC (more comfortable!).   For very cold applications it can be quoted at 0degC.  There is a chart called a Refutus Chart which allows known viscosity at 2 temps to be plotted and joined by a straight line, and so the viscosity at other temps can be determined.  I have all these charts if anybody needs help, although there are some excellent websites for these conversions.

The slope of this graph indicates the rate of change of viscosity with temp (oil will thicken as it cools and thin as it gets hotter).  The number for this is the Viscosity Index (VI), the higher the better is the general rule. A normal oil will be about 90 and this can go to 350, SHC oils are normally 120-150 and the VI can be even higher with additives (VI Improvers).

To compare oil viscosities I usually convert them all to ISO VG which helps me at least determine their relative fluidity, which is the major factor in selecting an oil for an application or replacement grade (on a finer point, I use replacement rather than equivalent, as all the properties are unlikely to be the same).

 

 

Pour Point - is the temperature at which an oil ceases to be fluid (normally due to the natural waxes solidifying) and for normal mineral oils this can be from -5dec for a thick (high viscosity) oil to -20degc for a very thin (low viscosity) oil.  SHC oils have much lower pour points as they do not have the same level of waxes present.  Pour point depressants can be used to lower the pour point, and are more common in ordinary mineral oils. So relevent to watches as it may affect the drag in the gear trains, pivots and mainspring barrel/arbour.

 

There are often many other 'numbers' quoted in an oils product data sheet (PDS), but whilst they are useful to know they rarely have much relevance to watch oils due to the small operating temp range of a wristwatch or standard clock.  The following are a list of those I can remember:-

 

Colour - the natural colour of the lubricant or the colour with dye added.

Odour - speaks for itself, but old oil industry hands can tell you whats in it from the smell!

Density - only if weight is an issue!

Vapour Pressure - only relevent at very low pressures (ie in orbit!!)

Ph - Acidity, more relevant where a combustion process is present, or when materials sensitive to acids are used (ie copper staining etc).

Flash Point - the temp when a spark literally on the surface ignites the vapours, 1mm further away and it is very high temp.  Either way irrelevant to watch oil.

Evaporation Rate - measures weight loss over time at given temps, a means of assessing the amount of residues left.  Not critical for watches but obviously the lower the rate the better!  Similar effects to ageing of an oil.

Solubility in water - some additives can be detrimental to non-solubilty which could lead to corrosion. Not too relevant for watches as most oils are formulated to not have these problems.  More a problem with greases.

Grease Penetration Number (NLGI) - normally 00, 0, 1, 2, 3.  Measures how far a cone penetrates a grease surface at a given temp, and is a measure of its 'stiffness'. The higher the number the stiffer the grease. Too thick and it may not get into the lube pint, too thin and it is squeezed out without effect.

Grease Drop Point - temp at which a grease with 'melt' enough to drip (do not confuse with oil leaching out).  Quite high temps so not too relevent for watch grease unless for hot conditions.

 

Point of interest - It is usually better to use a wax based product for corrosion protection than grease.  Grease often contains high levels of water in manufacture and once the inhibitors are 'used-up' over time, corrosion sets in under the grease film (remember the old brake cables in cars!!).

 

Sure you are all bored by now, so I'll stop.

 

Next post I'll try and relate to products on the market and how they stack up specification wise (usage and case history elements not included!).

 

Thanks for you perseverence.

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Not bored at all and wanting for more! Thank you canthus, nice post and very informative! I was surprised when you talked about the slope for viscocity vs. temp (rate of change). Would that suggest a linear function? I started thinking integrals and area under the graph...Can't help but over complicate matters in my head!!!

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Sorry bobm, a bit of over simplification on my part!  Both scales (temp & visc) are logarithmic which produces a straight line, ie linear relationship.  To be precise the straight line does curve away at very low and very high temps but for 99.9% of the time it can be considered straight?  If you need the maths I believe Wikopeadia is quite informative, but empirical methods are easier!  Great to know the exact viscosity of an oil at different temps but you can only use what you can buy!

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Thank you canthus, just wondering since lubricants behavior is interesting. With all the additives, processes involved, etc you would think the variation with the temperature would not be linear and nevertheless it is! Great post, keep at it! We are following with interest.

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  • 8 months later...

This is brilliant lecture for us canthus, well for me most of it is new. I have learnt a lot about lubricants.

 

I also got answered my question: I purchased very old watchmaker's shop stock for few dollars and found there supply of oils (some are still unopened) dating 1965 - just imagine 50 years old oils! I guess I have rare, very rare vintage watch oils! There are some Russian bottles with 'Maclo' - I think whale oil?

 

Anyway now, after your excellent post, I know that I need to build an oil lamp. :)

 

Thank you 

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Are you serious, Canthus? I think you're messing with us, so much detailed info and, I would say, structured!

I think one obviuous question would be: why is Moebius so expensive, and, more importantly, is there a cheap alternative?

The first answer I think it's the demand, but what's the second? Be careful what inside info you share, I feel a revolution coming! :)

Again, great info, very informative, and by all means, keep'em coming!

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    • Even after thorough cleaning unfortunately the issue persists. I have made sure that all wheels are perfectly clean, no teeth are chipped, no gunk is left built up on them etc. yet the issue is not gone. When reassembling the movement I of course checked if the wheel train moves freely as that was the suspected cause of the issue before. And the intersting thing is - it does - but only in the "wrong" direction. Driving the wheeltrain by turning the mainspring barrel in the opposite direction as it would turn in normal operation, all wheels spin freely, and continue spinning for a few moments even after I stop providing power by hand. They behave the way I'm used to and have seen with other wheels before. However: When I apply torque in the opposite direction, the power delivery througout the train is not smooth or continuous. While it does turn, there are stages of increased resistance in the train. In addition to this, you can hear a slight "rubbing" sound whenever the trian passes by this point of increased resistance. The sound, to me, is more indicative of a surface rubbing on another surface, rather than the teeth of two wheels getting stuck within each other. Installing the click and putting a wind in the mainspring confirms this same issue, it does unwind and all wheels are powered, yet when the power reserve approaches depletion, it doesn't have enough power to push the wheeltrain past this point of friction. The slightest bump on any of the wheels will free the train, make it spin for however many rotations and then get stuck in the same way. You can do this several times before the power is actually completely depleted. This has really left me dumbfounded. I have inspected all of the wheels, pivots, teeth etc. on the entire wheel train and can't find any traces of dirt, any bent teeth or any warped or out of plane wheels. Besides: If one of the wheels was bent and rubbing up against some other part of the movement during a rotation, shouldn't it be doing this regardless of the direction of the rotation? This is supremely confusing to me and I can't figure out for the life of me why there is increased friction in only ONE direction and not the other. Installing the balance yielded the same result as before the disassembly: the watch runs great for about 50 seconds and then get's stuck when the wheel train get's bogged down. I mentioned earlier that there is a periodic scraping noise that can be heard when the gear train turns fast, this noise is not present when turning the train the opposiste direction. Does anyone have any ideas about which parts of the movement I can check for rubbing? I found no signs of wear or scraping on any of the bridges etc. so what would cause this periodic friction in one direction but not the other? I am very much a novice and have never dealt with such an issue before so I would love to hear what you people think about this. Thanks.
    • For me the second site has been hacked. 
    • https://www.mikrolisk.de/show.php?site=280&suchwort=Tschuy-Vogt&searchWhere=all#sucheMarker Wierd the first link didn't work.  They used other manufacturers movements, like most watch companies.  The watch you are asking about has this movement  https://calibercorner.com/ronda-caliber-3540-d/
    • Is there a way to interpret that?  I assume that is information on the watch?  Thanks!
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