large time gain per hour

[rob1crazydude]

i recently purchased a Rolex 1560 on ebay, the watch was disassembled,  the balance bridge was well worn in comparison to the other watch plates showing brass under base.  the person said it needed a minor hairspring adjustment,  I assembled it and adjusted the hairspring several times to get it correct but it was TOO far gone,i think someone  didn't realize it had a hairspring protector in it and pulled the balance  with the bar in the way thus stringing out the hairspring, long story short I purchased a new balance complete for $250.00 on ebay that had been opened but not installed, I also opened the mainspring and it was metal mush, worn so badly I replaced it with a 1570 mainspring and a used barrel I had that didn't look too bad,  cleaned it ,reassembled it ,demagnetized it. and it is gaining about 10mins /hour, (1) could it be the generic mainspring not freely moving in the worn barrel?  ANY SUGGESTION??  thanks rob 

[rodabod]

Have you put the watch on a timegrapher yet? If not, have you closely inspected the balance action under a high magnification loupe?

I'd be surprised if it was a mainspring issue. 

Edited January 1, 2017 by rodabod

[JohnR725]

It's not a mainspring problem it's a hairspring problem more than likely.  Look very carefully at the hairspring make sure it spirals out nicely without touching anything that it's not supposed to. Make sure the coils Are not stuck together, rubbing on either the balance arm of the balance bridge etc.

[rob1crazydude]

i have checked all that nothing is showing that i can see after many views of it,  the last one acted the same. its funny to have the same problem even after replacing the complete balance, i have never run into this before  , this watch was on ebay and the watchmaker died and a novice gathered up all the watches and sold them for the widow, i keep wondering if there was a wrong part added, although i cant see what it would be, the balance bridge doesn't look right but is correct for this series, there is a beat difference between the 1560 and the 1570 , i went to the other end thinking an aftermarket mainspring maybe hanging up in the barrel and providing to much power causing this condition? at a loss so far, and not willing to start trying to adjust this hairspring. trouble is now i am old , don't work n a shop with other watchmakers to help me out, thanks guys for your time i appreciate it, !! rob

[JohnR725]

Timing machine do you have one? So what do the hands indicator versus what does the timing machine indicate? Then unfortunately for timing machine you'll need one to measure frequency because they normally don't measure 10 minutes fast per hour.

So both balance wheels do exactly the same thing they're probably not the problem Or the hairspring.

So to get something clear in my mind the watch was purchased in pieces?

So 1570 and 1560 share a common base caliber 1530. The mainspring is the same for all three. Then the 1560 runs at 18,000 BPH the 1570 is 19,800 BPH faster. The parts difference are the balance wheels and the plates probably because they're marked not so much for sizing differences perhaps. Then the 1570 was a different escape wheel and second wheel. The reason for the different escape wheel and second wheel is because the gear ratio has to be different to get the hands to revolve the proper rate.

So interesting things happen if you put a faster frequency balance wheel in a lower frequency watch. It looks great on the timing machine but the hands revolve at the wrong rate. Providing I did my math right a 19,800 balance wheel in 18,000 gear train would run about six minutes fast.

 

 

[rob1crazydude]

John I don't have a working timing machine , I really need to buy another   one,  AND YES IT WAS PURCHASED IN PEICES  , THATS WHY I DONT KNOW WHAT I HAVE AND EVEN though  I have cleaned a lot of Rolexs  I never took the time to learn the differences  , I could tear one down clean it oil it , time it , polished the cases, I tore each one down and only did 6 at a time in a Watchmaster and kept everything separate, . I didn't have to pay attention to the parts mingling, but I could see if you had a bunch out on a bench and went behind someone else you might screw things up and switch a few parts.How many teeth are one a 1560 escape wheel? this one seems to have the same as a 1570 I saw online as I recall I was trying to count them , this is a 1560 main plate as it has the mainspring protector bar the rotates into the  balance just above the hairspring , it has been removed as well.

[Geo]

You DONT HAVE TO SHOUT Rob.

[rob1crazydude]

Quote

sorry I forget that caps are shouting !,like when I look at your post with caps it means nothing to me that the caps are there.  don't know why.Is it supposed to be that you are mad at that person?? thanks for your input on my  problem with the Rolex! Rob

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by rob1crazydude
changed text

[rob1crazydude]

I set the hands on 12 on the rolex and on my elgin  and in one hour it gain 6 mins! so somebody here is smart! THANKS!

[JohnR725]

So before I go to work today I write myself a note to look for 1560s and 1570s at work. It's conceivable we have one in for repair if not sooner or later they'll show up. There's also a tiny possibility we might have spare parts.

Timing machines are not just used for regulating the watch. The graphical display will let you see things that can't be seen with your eyes or ears or anything else. At one time for hobbyists they were very expensive but now because the Chinese there very cheap so anyone working on watches that really should be on their list of things to buy.

So for instance if your balance wheel is oscillating at its correct frequency the timing machine would show us that. Then we can make the assumption that this a problem with the gear train. Then even though you can't time on the Chinese machine 10 minutes per hour it was still show us that things look dramatically bad and we would know it's a balance wheel/hairspring problem.

 

[rob1crazydude]

Thanks John

[JohnR725]

So probably not a very helpful answer we didn't have any of the movements at work conceivably they might come in eventually so no photographs. The person Theodore who specializes in Rolex watches at work commented it is a problem of people swapping the parts basically get all sorts a goofy timing issues. So unless the part comes in a factory sealed package it can be a problem. Another problem regarding open packages from watchmakers we have a habit of putting the old parts back in the package. So if anything ever been opened there is no 100% guarantee is what it's supposed to be.

Then because I was curious I was looking at the Internet found the link below. So it starts on page 2 at the very bottom he verifies what the problem is. He talks a little about it on the first page you really should read the thing from the beginning anyway. So Rolex has a hairspring guard It's to keep the hairspring in place as it has in over coil. So apparently it was touching the hairspring and that fixed everything. So if you're lucky may be you have the same problem.

http://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/1107-rolex-cal-1560/?page=2

 

 

[clockboy]

Almost without fail watches running way to fast it is either a hairspring issue or canon pinion issue. If a hairsprings length is being made to short either by coils sticking together or being obstructed in some way it will run fast. A loose cannon pinion is the other culprit if when adjusting the hands there is absolutely no resistance then check the canon. The mainspring will not make the watch run to fast. 

[rob1crazydude]

I just realized in looking at the pics in the post from John, the watch has the wrong balance n it the hairspring on an 1130  post is in a different position allowing the hairspring to clear the screw on the balance bridge it drops the spring before it gets to that area, on "mine" it drops the spring under the bridge and just barely rubs the   bridge probably affecting the spring travel. When I bought a replacement Balance complete I matched what was in there nit realizing the beat difference change.,  at looking at an 1130 it would need no hairspring adjustment to fit in place as the 1170 did, ( I have installed other balance completes and they have been a perfect drop in)  there is local one  for $280 dollars I guess I have no choice but to buy that one and try it since you cant get just a hairspring. most of them are asking $400 anyway. , I will keep the 1570 balance as it is like a saving account!!! I am sure it will go up.. I wish I hadn't of sold all my Rolex parts last year after seeing the prices I retired in the late 90's and just put all those parts away. now I am seeing even though I profited  from them I could have saved them now that I have found my way back to working on watches again THANKS GUYS!! (yes im shouting crazy old git,, with happiness!!)

[rob1crazydude]

not 11 series sorry. 1560.1530, something crossed my mind as well the balance bridge doesn't match the movement??I pulled the new balance back out abd packaged it

[rob1crazydude]

Way late update,, this watch ended up having the wrong 3rd wheel from the center wheel the teeth count was off , i replaced it and it started running fine, i never could find out  the info, anywhere but one day was going through EBAY and a guy had the wheel for sale stating the teeth count, it was different from the one i had, couldnt figure how it even fit in there and ran but when i changed out the watch straightened up,

[Nucejoe]

This happens, but rare .   I think the old wheel must have been for a variant of this caliber which beats different. 

[JohnR725]

12 hours ago, rob1crazydude said:

this watch ended up having the wrong 3rd wheel f

nice that you figured out the problem.

 

11 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

his happens, but rare

rare on other watches not rare on some Rolex watches. You look way back at the beginning of the discussion somewhere there a certain Rolex calibers that come in different frequencies. So people don't understand the base calibers one frequent see the later's are different frequencies. Somebody just wants to sell you watch they don't care mix-and-match it's your problem figure out why maybe it hasn't keep time. So is actually quite common for Rolex watches unfortunately a Sena discussed in other discussion groups a seated in the shop that I work at. All too common. Because unfortunately why is nice that the watch you buy is running as opposed to its in potentially running condition or some other clever wording.

I know you can do something similar with Omega watches a few of the calibers but I don't number which one. Just seems to be more common or I paid more attention that they can happen with these particular Rolex calibers.

[rob1crazydude]

scary i tried to imagine how this occurred unless maybe a 1570 movement was cleaned with a 1560 and the guy mixed ALL the parts together, i never clean parts together but rather in separate mini baskets,  THANKS GUYS!!!