This is a real Beauty

[jdrichard]

Wonder if I should clean this new pocket watch. Got it for 75US and amplitude is ok I think. Video attached.https://vimeo.com/197470651

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[WileyDave]

I like these BW Raymonds, couple of extra jewels and some nice damask on plates and wheels, unique regulator, big bold numbers, probably RR approved, case is well worn, shows a lot of use/love. Don't know if amplitude warrants overhaul, just my ignorance, please excuse.

[jdrichard]

I like these BW Raymonds, couple of extra jewels and some nice damask on plates and wheels, unique regulator, big bold numbers, probably RR approved, case is well worn, shows a lot of use/love. Don't know if amplitude warrants overhaul, just my ignorance, please excuse.

Looks like about 3/4 of 360 deg amplitude. 270deg amplitude. Watch the video. Might get a few more degrees if I clean it.


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[matabog]

That seems to me to be a low amplitude - about 120 degrees. What you are saying 3/4 360 is actualy two times the amplitude. You calculate the amplitude one time for every direction you twist the pallet fork.

An amplitude is calculated from the impulse jewel inside the pallet fork (in the rest/middle position) to it stopping very close to the outside of the pallet for (if it would touch it, there would be Banking).

[JohnR725]

This is the reason why I bought a timing machine visually it's sometimes hard to tell what the amplitude is. Video is partially misleading in that it makes the balance look like it's rotating too slow. So after studying the video I think it's about 275°. So you can stop the video manually slide the toolbar watch how far the balance swings in each direction and do a screen capture images below. So the arm goes barely under the bridge visually it sticks out a little bit. Then it goes around the other direction by quite a bit. Then I've attached an image showing what various balance amplitudes look like.

[jdrichard]

This is the reason why I bought a timing machine visually it's sometimes hard to tell what the amplitude is. Video is partially misleading in that it makes the balance look like it's rotating too slow. So after studying the video I think it's about 275°. So you can stop the video manually slide the toolbar watch how far the balance swings in each direction and do a screen capture images below. So the arm goes barely under the bridge visually it sticks out a little bit. Then it goes around the other direction by quite a bit. Then I've attached an image showing what various balance amplitudes look like.

I agree with the 275. It also has something called a "Traveling Nut : Spring". Not sure what this is. It also seems to slip when I wind it for more that 10 turns or so??

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[digginstony]

Very nice watch. 75US absolute bargain. Amplitude 270 excellent. That's normal for a movement in very sound condition. I suspect you have a broken mainspring. They normally hook to the inside of the barrel wall. They have a tendency to break about an inch or so from the hook. When the spring is under tension it will slip. Replacement springs are readily available. The watch from the photos looks about a size 16. If you haven't a mainspring winder, they are easily wound in by hand.

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[jdrichard]

Very nice watch. 75US absolute bargain. Amplitude 270 excellent. That's normal for a movement in very sound condition. I suspect you have a broken mainspring. They normally hook to the inside of the barrel wall. They have a tendency to break about an inch or so from the hook. When the spring is under tension it will slip. Replacement springs are readily available. The watch from the photos looks about a size 16. If you haven't a mainspring winder, they are easily wound in by hand.

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I have every watch repair tool none to mankind including 3 types of Mainspring winders. I have replaced many a Mainspring so no issue.need to crack open the barrel and have a look. I also burnish pivots with my Jacot tool.


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[matabog]

The balance wheel covers an aprox 270 deg arc, but the amplitude is half of that!

[jdrichard]

The balance wheel covers an aprox 270 deg arc, but the amplitude is half of that!

So what is a good amplitude. Not many many watches get more than 300 deg of arc, so is your math correct?


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[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, matabog said:

The balance wheel covers an aprox 270 deg arc, but the amplitude is half of that!

So looking at what you've written thinking no no no then feeling really really really stupid. This of course is why I got a timing machine at least one of the reasons. Timing machines also helps you diagnose things that can't be seen on the graphical display there really a must have and now affordable very affordable thanks to the Chinese.

So you look at my image were seeing the balance swing from one extreme to the other and amplitude is one half of that. So the video was still helpful without a timing machine we see that the complete oscillation is roughly 270 and you're running one half 135 that which is very very bad.

So what is a good amplitude?  Before we get the numbers as amplitude decreases everything bad in the watch gets magnified. So as you go falling in amplitude positional errors increase the effect of the escapement in a bad way increases Or simplistically timing flies out the window.

Then for numbers we have issues in that whose numbers you want to look at? Some watch companies will tell you when the watches fully serviced it should have amplitude between certain degrees but a modern Rolex for instance is going to time differently than antique American pocket watch. Then companies like Omega publish the minimum amplitude at the end of 24 hours. Then some timing machine companies in their documentations will have recommendations but it all depends on the watch. Rolex watches will typically go at least 48 hours so at 24 hours that's only 50% of the power reserve you going to get a different amplitude than we are with a pocket watch.

Omega while listing minimums for most their various watches also has a chart for their antique watches. They listed by size and they never made or at least are not acknowledging of making a pocket watch this size. So the minimum they have is 180° unless it's a tiny ladies watch that can go 160°. Rolex 200° minimum for all their watches with a maximum for two of them at 280 otherwise 300°.

Then Witschi has a couple PDFs on timing mechanical watches found below and they have recommendations. I've attached an image out of the first PDF below. Then as a reminder timing in one position dial up or dial down isn't always the best as usually gives you the best amplitude. So it always helps to put in at least one pendant position.

http://www.witschi.com/assets/files/sheets/Witschi Training Course.pdf

 

http://www.witschi.com/assets/files/sheets/Test and measuring technology mechanical watches.pdf

[jdrichard]

Amplitude is the measure of the amount of rotation in the swing of the balance wheel, in either direction, usually expressed in degrees. In a running watch, the balance wheel swings or rotates clockwise and counterclockwise. Each swing in either direction is called a “beat”. Amplitude is the number of degrees of rotation of the beat. Amplitude is higher, typically in the range of about 270 to 315 degrees, when a watch is lying flat or in the “dial up” or “dial down” position.


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[jdrichard]

Can Mark comment on this? What is the amplitude of rhetoric watch in question?


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[digginstony]

Certainly Walthams of this period were (If in sound condition) known to have an amplitude of 270. This was a visual inspection of the balance swing (No timegraphers).
This was measured in its optimum position either dial up or down. Even achieving an acceptable beat error is complicated and very time consuming in comparison to a modern watch. Also the person Regulating the watch in the bygone days of personal service would ask the watch owner certain lifestyle questions prior to Regulating.
If the watch performs satisfactory in all 6 positions and accuracy is + or - 2 to 3 minutes a day, which appears the norm,you have a very good watch.

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[digginstony]

Railroad pocket watch versions were more accurate than previously mentioned. There development was as a result of a train crash where a pocket watch stopped for 4 minute's and restarted without anyone noticing which lead to a collision and many people lost their lives. I suspect a watch of this type used in the industry of its intended purpose was regulated with particular attention to 1 position, probably crown up and placed in the drivers cab, in a fixed position.

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[jdrichard]

Railroad pocket watch versions were more accurate than previously mentioned. There development was as a result of a train crash where a pocket watch stopped for 4 minute's and restarted without anyone noticing which lead to a collision and many people lost their lives. I suspect a watch of this type used in the industry of its intended purpose was regulated with particular attention to 1 position, probably crown up and placed in the drivers cab, in a fixed position.

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You are a good resource for knowledge and history, thanks.


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[jdrichard]

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[jdrichard]

I think that the 1 1/4 turn would be 225deg amplitude

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[jdrichard]

Each clockwise or counterclockwise swing of the balance wheel is called a beat. The number of degrees of rotation of the beat is the amplitude of the balance. In most contemporary wristwatches, the amplitude of the balance in a horizontal position (i.e. dial up or dial down) should fall between 275 and 315 degrees. Low amplitude will affect the rate of the watch (speeding it up because the shorter swings complete more quickly). Excessive amplitude may result in the impulse pin on the impulse roller coming completely around and hitting the back of the pallet fork.


Amplitude may be measured with an electronic timer, or may be visually estimated. In the illustration the balance is in its centered (rest) position. The clockwise travel of one spoke (bottom) is indicated. Normally, the spoke will travel to between 275 and 315 degrees before reversing its direction, returning to center, and travelling 275 to 315 degrees counterclockwise.


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[jdrichard]

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[digginstony]

Also when varying the watches position from horizontal to vertical positions a loss of no more than 30 degrees is desirable. Noting this to be a new movement or one in mint condition.

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[matabog]

10 hours ago, jdrichard said:

Normally, the spoke will travel to between 275 and 315 degrees before reversing its direction, returning to center, and travelling 275 to 315 degrees counterclockwise.

What you are visually measuring 270deg is twice the amplitude

[jdrichard]

What you are visually measuring 270deg is twice the amplitude

Done agree, please read attached


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[jdrichard]

So my timing machine is wrong?

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[matabog]

i don't know what your timing machine shows, I am trying to interpret the video.

 

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