Jump to content

Empire Watch Co. Venus 170 Service? Repair?


Recommended Posts

This will be more of a stumble-through than a walkthrough, since it's my first watch disassembly (and hopefully reassembly).  I plan to do it as a series by replying to this post, so I can get feedback and help as I go (if anybody is interested).  I hope that's OK (it will be slow going).  I couldn't find any walkthroughs of a Venus 170, so at least I'll contribute some pictures with what I learned along the way.

The watch:  Purchased from goodwill online.  Broken/yellowed crystal, hands bent, corrosion on the case and chrono buttons, dial very marred.  Some power in it, as pressing the button moved the chrono second hand until it bumped against the main minute hand, which was bent.  Main second hand bent to the dial as well.  I did not wind the crown.  Balance oscillates.

Watch arrived with the back off.  Crystal removed with tweezers, and hands removed with the movement still in the case so I wouldn't damage them by fumbling around.  Once I had the case screws out I was expecting a movement ring, but there was none.  I figured out the case has a bezel and the movement comes out the front.   Couldn't find my bench knife but the bezel came off easy with some pressure from a screwdriver at a gap near the 2oc lug.  Once the movement was out I was expecting dial screws on the side, but there were none, so I had to learn about dog screws and figured out their locations by studying the backs of cal. 170 dials for sale on ebay.

Movement Back.jpg

Note the chrono bridge looks unlike any other pictures of a 170 I've found online (including the one other Empire 170 I found), and it's not stamped.  Venus logo is not on the balance, but on the other side of the movement (see attached).  Perhaps this will help date the movement?

Here are the results of these first steps with additional pics attached.

Initial Disassembly.jpg

Hands detail.jpg

hands detail2.jpg

hands detail3.jpg

Movement Dial Side.jpg

Dial Front with Hands.jpg

Empire Watch Co. Mark.jpg

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wonderful pictures- keep them coming!  :)

The movement looks nice and clean, I don't see much rust at all.  The blued hands are in quite good shape too and the dial will look fine under a new crystal I think.  If you're intent is to make this watch your own, I would highly suggest having the case, bezel, and pushers replated by RePlateIt- they do fantastic work.

Volume 2 of the Esembl-o-graf covers the assembly of the Venus 170 chronograph mechanism.  You used to be able to find it at this link although it's failing for me tonight.  A Google search will probably bring up a PDF though.  The tech sheet will help you if you need to find replacement parts also.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the support, everyone.  Ry, I appreciate the links.  I'd seen the tech sheet, which I used to make this diagram:

venus 170 watch movement labeled.jpg

I'd seen the Esembl-o-graf for sale (as pdf) by hucksters on the bay, but hadn't yet found a free one online, so thanks for that.  The scans are really good, too.  It's a great document and largely made my diagram redundant, but it was helpful for me to study the shapes and names of the parts in the tech sheet and find them in the watch, so it wasn't a wasted effort.

Some notes on further progress I've made.

I was surprised to find screws on the pushers, but I guess they're just there to provide a lip to keep them in the case.  The pushers have pretty bad brassing.  The case itself is not too bad once the green gunk was removed with mineral oil and a toothpick, but I guess if I replate the pushers I ought to replate the case.  I'll think on that some.  One thing about those screws: they were good practice for me to learn technique and further refine the tips of my screwdrivers before I attacked the movement.

pusher1.jpgpusher2.jpg

I got through the removal of the first few pieces: flyback levers, chrono bridge, and chrono wheels.  I stopped before the Second Wheel Tension Spring.  Seemed like a good place for a picture in case it needs to be just-so on reassembly.

  Detail1 Seconds Wheel Tension spring.jpg

Ry, you commented that the movement seems fairly rust free, and I was pleased by this too (especially with that broken crystal).  Looking through the sides of the movement, I can see a bit of oxidation on the barrel, though.  It might get a bit messier once I get deeper in.

I'm starting to think about oil.  If anyone has any tips on best sources of small quantities, and the minimum types I need, I'd appreciate it.  Let's assume I'll take the whole thing apart, but feel free to stop me if you don't think it's necessary to clean or oil certain difficult parts (like the balance, haha).

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unless you know a friendly watch maker that will give you some oil your best bet is Cousins if you are in the UK, but be prepared for a price shock. You won't have much change out of £70 just to get the basics.

Have a look at this thread for more information.

http://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/83-lubricants/

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh my gosh, the price of lubricants was a real shocker for me.  When I got started earlier this year I thought my kit was pretty well rounded and then I realized I needed oil!.  When I purchased the lubricants I figured I would need for a chronograph repair...  Ugh.  It was painful.

On the plus side, most lubricants are synthetic and will last for quite a while if stored properly.  You'll not recoup the cost though unless you plan on doing a few watches.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice work thus far Scott,

I've not seen pushers with screws like that before.  Most have a small lip that keeps them in the case although the 1940's were kind of like the "Wild West" days for the chronograph and many manufacturers had different solutions.  Possibly this was a fix by a later watchmaker.  Here's a pic of a NOS replacement I have although for what chronograph I'm not sure.

IMG_1588.JPG

Regarding the chronograph runner tension spring- that little guy is going to probably give you fits when you take it off.  It's extremely light and will take a static charge very well which causes it to become magnetized.  It will stick to your tweezers and grab at anything steel when you try to replace it- especially it's own retaining screw.  Nothing wrong with that so long as you are prepared for it and remain calm during reassembly.  ^_^

That's good news regarding the lack of rust.  Usually if you do find it, it will be in the keyless works or where the pushers meet the actuating levers.  On the Venus chronograph I'm working on there was quite a bit of rust.  I gave the rusty parts a bath in some vinegar, then polished out any pitting when possible.  As you can see below, not all parts could be salvaged though.

IMG_1123.JPGIMG_1529.JPG

Keep up the good work!  :)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice pics.  I wonder if electrolysis would work better on the rust w/o losing too much of the base metal?

The tension spring didn't give me much grief, though I was worried.  I did lose my first screw though.  I went back to remove some screws that were still in some of the early parts I removed and get them into the movement (so I wouldn't lose them).  One of the springs popped out of my tweezers with the screw still in it.  The spring didn't go far and was easy to find, but the screw was nowhere to be seen.  I can only imagine how fast the spring was rotating after it left my tweezers!  Anyway, a visual scan didn't work so I got out my 2" neodynium magnet and swept the floor with it.  Sure enough, it picked it up in a couple of minutes.  Now the question is, do I have to degauss it?  I don't think it would be too hard to build a demagnetizer from an old motor I have.  I figure I could have the screw in a ziplock and run it through the coil, which should take care of it.  Such a little screw, though: necessary?

I'm resigned to shelling out for decent oils, though I'm considering some nice synthetic gear grease I have for the barrel.  Grease won't migrate out of the barrel, will it?  Guess I'll find out when I get to it and see what it looks like.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On December 1, 2016 at 11:10 PM, ScottMcAfee said:

Nice pics.  I wonder if electrolysis would work better on the rust w/o losing too much of the base metal?

The tension spring didn't give me much grief, though I was worried.  I did lose my first screw though.  I went back to remove some screws that were still in some of the early parts I removed and get them into the movement (so I wouldn't lose them).  One of the springs popped out of my tweezers with the screw still in it.  The spring didn't go far and was easy to find, but the screw was nowhere to be seen.  I can only imagine how fast the spring was rotating after it left my tweezers!  Anyway, a visual scan didn't work so I got out my 2" neodynium magnet and swept the floor with it.  Sure enough, it picked it up in a couple of minutes.  Now the question is, do I have to degauss it?  I don't think it would be too hard to build a demagnetizer from an old motor I have.  I figure I could have the screw in a ziplock and run it through the coil, which should take care of it.  Such a little screw, though: necessary?

I'm resigned to shelling out for decent oils, though I'm considering some nice synthetic gear grease I have for the barrel.  Grease won't migrate out of the barrel, will it?  Guess I'll find out when I get to it and see what it looks like.

The screw will certainly be magnetized if it contacted a neodymium magnet although it may not have any impact on the function of the watch.  It will sticky around steel parts though unless it's demagnetized.

I don't believe any grease will be required for the barrel although the mainspring should be lightly oiled.  Automatic watches will call for breaking grease in the barrel but I've not had any experience with automatics yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, the Chrono parts are all removed, which brings me to the end of the excellent Esembl-o-graf  instructions.   Any good resources for the disassembly of the rest of the watch?  There is a Venus 175 disassembly video on Youtube, but I haven't been able to find anything more on the 170 cal. besides the spec sheet.

Thanks! -Scott

WIN_20161209_19_11_36_Pro.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well you've worked your way down to the base movement and unfortunately there isn't a service guide that I'm aware of for the base movement- but it's pretty much identical for most manual wind watches.  I would suggest watching a few of @Mark's videos as they'll give you a good view of how the gear train, keyless works, and mainspring barrel are typically serviced. 

You'll need a few different lubricants during reassembly.  If I don't have a service guide or technical sheet that details which lubricants to use then I usually default to the Moebius chart:

watch_moebius_lubricating_chart.png

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks: I had seen some of @Mark's videos on Youtube, including the Venus 175 I mentioned earlier, but hadn't connected them with the admin of this site.  And so my thanks to you as well, Mark.

Unfortunately despite watching the video a few times, I still didn't release the power before taking off the 3/4 plate bridge.  Which I'm guessing is why the third wheel looks like this:

Wheel Train crooked third3.jpg

Hopefully I didn't damage the wheels or jewels.

Ry, thanks for the table; interesting that it doesn't mention 941 or 9415 for the pallet stones.   I'm thinking of going with Nye 140c and b, and PML-W10 and maybe 941.  Maybe 9010, too, if for no other reason than to compare it to the Nye.  I see a lot of questions out there about how the Nye stacks up, but not a lot of answers.  Also thinking of trying to epilame with stearic acid.

Thanks @Watchtime.

-Scottwheel train exposed.jpgWheel Train crooked third3.jpg

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm trying to recall how the 170 movement goes together (I'm not at the workbench right now)- I think there's a friction fit pinion on the second wheel (dial side) that needs to be removed before the wheel will come out, it can be leveraged off with a set of hand pullers.  Since you've already removed the the plate I would suggest taking out the third, fourth, and escape wheel, then remounting the plate before removing the pinion.  This will ensure that the second wheel is held secure and straight when you remove the pinion.  It's important that the pinion is lifted straight off the post- if it comes off at an angle the post may bend or break necessitating a replacement second wheel.

583942f2854e2_MovementDialSide.thumb.jpg.c79077b1062eec5ad1aab86ccc029595.jpg

Sometimes when you think you've let down the mainspring entirely you'll discover there's still a little juice left in it.  I think best practice (and I'm an amateur so I may be wrong) is to remove the balance and pallet fork after letting down the mainspring.  That way the gear train is free to move and release any energy that might be left.

You'll need to inspect the gears and pinions before reassembly to ensure there's no damage.  Look for bent or missing teeth and bent pivots.  Hopefully all is well.  ^_^

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

second wheel with canon pinion visilbe.jpgWell Ry, you really anticipated my dilemma.  I had gotten the barrel, third, fourth, escape, and pallet out and was studying the second wheel up and down to try to guess if the friction fit (canon?) pinion comes off or the wheel comes off).  I was going to post the question, but you beat me to it with the answer!   I'm glad it's the canon pinion, since it would be hard to get any leverage on the wheel.  Anyway thanks!

@Watchtime the crystals came in and look and fit great.  Here's the one for the Empire.  Thank you!

case dial with crystal.jpg

Looking forward to getting it back together!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Got the friction fit gear off with little difficulty and the keyless works followed quickly.  The only thing left is the little sliding gear spring which is so nicely tucked into crevices I'm afraid of bending it getting it out.  I think I have to though, else it will probably trap moisture from the cleaning.

Turns out that the Otto Frei watch/jewlry tools shop is just a few blocks from where I work.  This is both convenient and dangerous I think, but I picked up a few oils and tools without getting too carried away.

Empty Plate2.jpg

Empty Plate1.jpg

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see three springs there still:

  1. Minute Wheel Spring
  2. Rocking Bar Spring
  3. Setting Lever Spring

They all should come out without much effort.  I would suggest removing them as they have a way of becoming lost if you try to clean the plate with the springs unsecured.  Use tweezers in your dominant hand and peg wood in the other.  They can go flying but most of the tension has already been released from each (having the minute wheel, rocking bar, and setting lever already removed).

So far it's looking good.  :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good eye, Ry.  I got those off and cleaned all the non-chrono parts.  Cleaned them twice, as the first time I had no idea they'd rust so quickly after the ultrasonic clean and rinse.  The second time was to get this rust off, after which I was a lot less lazy about drying the parts.

One piece I didn't take off was this that I found on a closer inspection:

balance shock.png

What is this, some sort of incablocish balance shock dampener?  I don't see it in the tech sheet.  I'm a little worried if I take it off springs will shoot out at me or I won't be able to get it together right.  I'm a little worried there might be water in there, though.

I decided to replace the mainspring.  Not sure if the old one is set, but... it's a bit bent out of shape around the eye and hook and it looks like maybe a new hook was fabricated since it's a little blackened at the end.  The main reason though:  I figured it was cheaper to buy a mainspring than to buy a winder.

New and Old Spring.jpg

I've read all I can find on oiling mainsprings.  It seems like I can assume that the new spring is lubed.  Many seem to think that the spring doesn't touch the cover and bottom of the barrel.  This surprises me, but I'm willing to just drop it in there, trying to get it past the groove for the cover and not quite to the bottom, and only oil the arbor.  Quite a variety of opinions on this topic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's the lower balance cap jewel.  It's not sprung so it won't fly away when you remove it.  You'll want to remove it, clean it, and apply a new droplet of oil for the the lower balance pivot.  That's also one of the three smallest screws on the movement too.  ^_^

This movement doesn't have incabloc shock protection so you'll just want to be extra careful handling the watch once the balance is back in place.  My very first service was a Pierce chronograph and I managed to get the thing apart and back together without incident.  Unfortunately very shortly thereafter it took a spill and this was enough to bend a pivot.  I can only imagine how busy watchmakers were back before shock protection was introduced!

You can probably purchase watch and clock cleaning solutions from Otto.  These are non-aqueous and will not rust the steel bits.  Alternately lighter fluid can be used but extreme care must be observed due to it's flammable nature.  

Always a good idea to replace the mainspring if you can afford it too.  

Keep up the good work!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

OK, I've got the non-chrono portion of the watch back together and lubed, with all parts accounted for.  The mainspring worked great and caught the arbor right away.  Getting the pallet, escape wheel, their bridge, and the balance in place was incredibly challenging.  I don't know how many times I had to place, nudge, fuss, fiddle, adjust, and start over again when it wasn't right.  But it was hours.   Anyway, I was rewarded with a beating movement.  It's great fun to pull the stem out and watch the keyless works turn while now understanding how the whole thing functions.  Hopefully I didn't screw up anything too bad with all that fiddling!

On to the chronograph parts...

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is the first time I have read this post.  I would like to congratulate Scott and all who have offered assistance, especially Ry.  I look forward to the end result

You have gone one better than me Scott, a chronograph was my second watch  refurbishment, well done sir!

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites



×
×
  • Create New...