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Running fast and sound like a horse galloping!!!


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Ok guys here goes, this is another job for a customer per sae, it was given to me with a yellowed non fitted crystal, bent hands, detached stem and not running.

ive fixed the stem the crystal, hands, stripped cleaned and lubed the movement, it was running great after that but way to fast, like over 2 hours fast overnight. I unpinned the hairspring and lengthened it to try and resolve the fast running,  but positional error now shows a massive difference, if it's dial up it gains a huge amount approx 2 hours a day even with the regulator pushed as far over on the slow side as possible. But if it's sitting vertically it keeps reasonable time, maybe +5 mins a day ( which I know is a huge amount ) compared to dial up this is almost acceptable.

anyway here are some pictures of said watch, maybe someone might be able to shed some light on movement etc

%5BURL=http://s1302.photobucket.com/user/Pjw24771232/media/A8A8F7C2-D58F-47F0-B8EA-37F46EDD00BB_zpscg38rmsl.jpg.html%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag132/Pjw24771232/A8A8F7C2-D58F-47F0-B8EA-37F46EDD00BB_zpscg38rmsl.jpg%5B/IMG%5D%5B/URL%5D

%5BURL=http://s1302.photobucket.com/user/Pjw24771232/media/8FFA934B-1289-4D35-B3C4-7F48CBEF4E70_zpszt71287d.jpg.html%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag132/Pjw24771232/8FFA934B-1289-4D35-B3C4-7F48CBEF4E70_zpszt71287d.jpg%5B/IMG%5D%5B/URL%5D

%5BURL=http://s1302.photobucket.com/user/Pjw24771232/media/FF14F235-ED8A-4A3B-85C1-C29D9B38F972_zpsu8zp1hg8.jpg.html%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag132/Pjw24771232/FF14F235-ED8A-4A3B-85C1-C29D9B38F972_zpsu8zp1hg8.jpg%5B/IMG%5D%5B/URL%5D

%5BURL=http://s1302.photobucket.com/user/Pjw24771232/media/0909629A-FF23-47F2-95EA-49BFC8DCD4F7_zpspo9qmsht.jpg.html%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag132/Pjw24771232/0909629A-FF23-47F2-95EA-49BFC8DCD4F7_zpspo9qmsht.jpg%5B/IMG%5D%5B/URL%5D

%5BURL=http://s1302.photobucket.com/user/Pjw24771232/media/30DF72D1-711C-4664-A0E3-B4198A530E8E_zpsps5wlvde.jpg.html%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag132/Pjw24771232/30DF72D1-711C-4664-A0E3-B4198A530E8E_zpsps5wlvde.jpg%5B/IMG%5D%5B/URL%5D

 Cheers guys 

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48dd5d1e53c1e5d345d241ef4aa82e0c.jpg
Well as you can see it's not the prettiest but it's been sat dial up for an hour now and is keeping time with my iPhone clock, I'll leave it as is for a full wind to see how it runs then I'll go vertical for a full wind tomorrow and see how it runs then.

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Perhaps you can just upload your photos instead of pointing to Photobucket?

Repinning the hairspring should have been the fix of last resort, unless you know someone had been messing with it.  Hairsprings were vibrated at the factory to be the appropriate BPH and should never be modified.

The first thing I would suspect when having such a big difference between horizontal and vertical positions is a broken balance hole jewel.  Did you examine these closely when you disassembled for cleaning?

How is the amplitude in both of these positions?

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You should have demagnetized the watch first and if that didn’t work check and make sure the hairspring is clean, make sure the hairspring is not catching up on anything. Extending or shortening the hairspring will always cause the watch to be out of beat and alter the time keeping.  

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proper de magnetization of the hair spring is to remove the balance,  wrap it in paper and then pass it properly thru the de-gouser.  you can pass the remaining portion of the mvt.,  just for luck.

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Ok guys cheers for the replies, watch was demagnetised as routine, and soaked and cleaned in essence of Renata (again routine) as for lengthening the hairspring, it had a loose end of approx 1cm so plenty to play with, I only lengthened it as a last resort due to the hairsprings shape, it looked like the one out of marks video about it being magnetised and then contaminated with oil, after I lengthened it, it went back into a half decent shape. As for it being out of beat unfortunately it's one of those cocks where you can't adjust the beat, you have to turn the roller jewel table on the balance staff to get the beat in time. 

as for pictures, I apologise and will add them direct now

IMG_6875.JPG

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For adjusting beat, it is better to turn the hairspring collet rather than the roller table. (There are specific tools made for this, or you can use a screwdriver if careful.)  Turning can cause loosening.  You can always tighten the hairspring collet again, but can't do the same with the roller table.

So, what about the balance jewels?  The reason I mention the hole jewels is that they come into play in the 'vertical' positions, whereas the endstones are more important in the dial up and dial down positions.  So, something like this can explain a difference in timing between horizontal and vertical positions.  If it gains in the horizontal positions and loses in the vertical, suspect the hole jewels.  If it gains in the vertical and loses in the horizontal, take a look at the flat surface of the endstones for pitting or cracking.

Nice looking watch, by the way.  Can we see the movement?

Edited by DaveCoatsworth
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There is a potential clue in your post title... "sounds like a horse galloping"

I'm not sure that it would cause a 2 hour gain over night but the "galloping horse" sound is a classic symptom of over banking, where the balance amplitude is so high that the impulse pin is striking the outside of the pallet fork at each end of its swing giving rise to the galloping sound.

The usual cause for this is too powerful a main spring and if it is severe enough the rebound from striking the outside of the pallet fork can be enough to accelerate the balance back the way it came faster than it would otherwise go causing the rate to increase.

An easy mistake to make is to replace a broken or set blued steel main spring with a white alloy main spring of the same dimensions. The white springs are more powerful than their older blued steel counterparts so if you replace like for like dimensionally you run the risk of encountering this particular issue, although I have no idea whether it can cause the kind of rate increase you have got. 

If this is the case then adjusting the hair spring will not solve the problem and could easily introduce additional positional timing problems as the beat will go way out unless you also tweaked the collet position to counter the beat shift that would have resulted from re-pinning the hair spring, as well as altering the position of the point of attachment at the collet.

If it were mine I would return the hair spring to the length that it had originally been pinned at, let down the main spring, then wind it up just enough to set the movement running. Listen to it and if it isn't galloping wind it up a little more. Keep increasing the amount of main spring wind until it just starts to gallop again and then stop. let it run down until the galloping stops and only then start your timing trial. If the timing then proves to be good then you have found the problem and will need to source a less strong main spring.

Even if the timing issue isn't resolved at a lower state of wind, the main spring should still be replaced as over banking can damage the balance / impulse pin / pallet fork.

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Marc, everything you say makes sense, so glad you could work out what I was trying to explain, I haven't changed the mainspring but that's not to say someone before me has, although it is a blue steel one so that's one thing. 

Dave, I shall reinspect the jewels, but on my previous inspection and clean they looked in good order (80x microscope).

i will have a play this evening after work, in the vertical position over night it gained 10mins.

 

 

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You say it was running great after that but way to fast, like over 2 hours fast overnight. But in your subject you say it it sounds like a galloping horse. So which is it to be? because if it was going great with no noise it can't be the mainspring.

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Fully agree with Marc's diagnosis and detailed explanation. 

Everything described is typical for overbanking. But there would be no doubt if a timing machine was available, overbanking is very obvious in the trace.

Frank

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Bear  with me guys, this is the first picture I've been able to upload for a whole day, the system isn't working correctly for me, anyway this is the trace after approx 20hrs of running. I'll now read through all your posts properly now I've finished work, but unfortunately won't be able to spend time on this movement tonight. I will endeavour to get a picture of the movement uploaded so you can see how basic it is ok, cheers for your patience and help with this one

image.jpg

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ok this picture is with the movement with approx 3 winds of the crown on the mainspring, so not a lot of power in the spring but enough to get the balance moving.

sorry these posts are fragmented but I'm really having problems uploading pictures at the moment.

IMG_6880.JPG

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IMG_6890.thumb.JPG.4dd39541585f8510f8fda
Right I'm now using tapatalk to get photos up, here's one hopefully of the hairspring/balance complete. Can anyone see anything drastically wrong with the form of the spring? You can see the extra length of hairspring after the collet


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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The shape of the terminal curve is not very good. Although hair spring looks to be fairly concentric with the regulator where it is in the pic I think you are going to run into problems if you try moving it. I would say that if you move the regulator clockwise (from above) to slow the rate then you are going to push the outer coils towards the pivot, and if you move it anticlockwise to speed it up then you are going to pull the coils away from the pivot; either way the concentricity will be lost.

Also, and this may just be the pic, it looks like the balance wheel is slightly out of round.

Neither of these issues will cause it to gallop though, or make it run insanely fast.

Were you able to get it to run without galloping?

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 Cheers Marc, as for running without galloping if you have a quick look at my last timegragh picture you can see the trace was running at +145s/d with an amp of 304, a quarter of the trace is a constant beat (albeit fast) then the middle of the trace it starts to gallop, then it settles back down to a fast beat with no galloping. 

I think what I might try is to centralise the regulator then un pin and adjust the length of the hair spring to attempt to see if o can get it nice and concentric throughout its length and see how it goes from there.

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Your hairspring I suspect needs to be a touch longer. Also as Marc says the terminal curve is not correct. I offer advise from experience, make all adjustments with the spring removed from the balanced and make a small mark on the balance rim to help with the alignment of the end stud when re-assembling. You will need really good magnification & I suggest you follow the method shown below.  

 

 

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From what I can see if that is how the hairspring stays when it assembled there is the possibility the coils from the hairspring will touch each other. One other thing make sure the hairspring is free in the regulator, you should be able to move the regulator from s right over to f and the spring should bounce between the regulator, getting this right should help you to adjust the hairspring correctly.    

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