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Fault finding with 2824-2 movement

BoweyUK

By BoweyUK
in Watch Repairs Help & Advice

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BoweyUK Member

BoweyUK

Posted
Posted

Hi everyone.

 

I am new here and I have an issue with servicing my Breitling which houses a 2824-2 movement. 

I have stripped the watch down, which was running quite well but didnt keep the best time. All parts have been cleaned and the movement reassembled. I was careful to check the workings of the movement as I was going along so that if there were any parts out of place I would have noticed earlier. However, when placing the balance in place, it doesn't run unless I give it a nudge. I have wound the crown a good 7/8 turns so there is sufficient power. Even after nudging the balance it will run for 5 minutes sometimes or a couple of hours other times. The hairspring looks great and is not kinked at all. Please have a look at the pictures and see if i'm missing something here....Any idea what could be causing the stoppage? The pallets are fine and in position and with the balance removed it will function as it should with the escape wheel when I nudge the tail. I'm lost with this one...Maybe it's my lack of experience but i'm hoping someone here with more knowledge will be able to help...

 

Thanks in advance guys!

 

 

David

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parmenion31 WRT Addict

parmenion31

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Hi Bowey,

Is it possible to moved accidentaly the hairspring holder? That would put it out of beat.

Or you can check-clean again , many times i found little tiny hair things just after i had clean a watch.Mostly in winter as we wear more clothes but the damage is done, and i do again the cleaning :(

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StuartBaker104 Distinguished Member

StuartBaker104

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Is the upper balance jewel spring secured correctly? Maybe just a trick of the light but it doesn't look right.

If that's not the issue, let down the power, remove the pallet fork and make sure the train spins forward freely and then bounces back when you apply one click of wind.

Leave the pallets out and refit the balance. Does it spin freely?

If any issues with the above it is likely you have dirt in a jewel or on a pivot, or possibly a damaged pivot. Given the snow on your timegrapher, my guess would be this is a balance / pallet issue.

 

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jdm Distinguished Member

jdm

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, parmenion31 said:

Is it possible to moved accidentaly the hairspring holder? That would put it out of beat.

One cannot say if it is "out of beat", because it oscillates so poorly that the machine cannot pick a pattern or amplitude. Something is very wrong with the balance or escapement, either at the balance pivot or pallet, or something is rubbing. All that of course assuming the train is fine.

Edited by jdm
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jdm Distinguished Member

jdm

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Posted
Just now, BoweyUK said:

Thank you for the replies. I'm going to try everything you guys have suggested and then report back here afterward. Allow me an hour =)

Why just one hour. Take all the time and some more to be sure. Also, is much better work with natural light, it will allow you to notice tiny details much easily.

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clockboy Distinguished Member

clockboy

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It,s almost certainly an escape or balance issue. A couple of good checks:

1)Remove the balance & pallet folk & first check that the pallet stones are perfectly clean & not loose.
2)Replace the balance & check the balance jewel settles in the middle of the banking pins (this is approx. in beat)

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BoweyUK Member

BoweyUK

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So i've tried removing the balance and pallet fork. After doing this and winding one click the train runs perfectly so at least we can rule that out. I replaced everything to where it should be and the same error occurs. When I place the balance and touch the wheel to get it going it makes a rubbing noise and when i turn the wheel gently with my tweezers anti clockwise about 45 degrees it jams...something is stopping....Maybe as a few have suggested, the balance jewel is not aligned between the banking pins...

 

Not sure how to go about this. I did watch Marks video on doing it but the balance in the video is very different to the 2824-2 balance...

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BoweyUK Member

BoweyUK

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Yeah, this is what baffles me...It will run, but occasionally stop. Also, it is so erratic that the timegrapher won't give a reading on it so something is a miss. Plus, it is gaining time, a lot of time...Since the timegrapher won't give me a reading I have tested it myself and within 1 hour it has gained 12 minutes!!!!

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StuartBaker104 Distinguished Member

StuartBaker104

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8 hours ago, BoweyUK said:

when I nudged it with the pallet fork removed it moved only when I nudged it, but not very much...

So this tells you that the balance is not moving freely. It should oscillate freely after a gentle puff with a blower.

Does it become stiff to move as you tighten the balance cock screw? If so then JDM has a very likely answer.

Alternatively, check very carefully to be sure that all 4 balance jewels are spotless, and that the pivots are clean and straight, then look to see if the balance or spring touch anything (balance cock, centre wheel, each other, etc). Sometimes it helps to remove the hairspring from the balance to isolate the problem.

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clockboy Distinguished Member

clockboy

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Looking at the vid. it has a very low amplitude so without doubt it is either an escape or balance issue. Some calibers the upper & lower cap jewels are different if so getting getting them around the wrong way will cause this issue. As a test remove the top cap jewel & see how it runs.

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Marc Distinguished Member

Marc

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The extremely high rate of gain suggests hair spring fouling issues, principal candidates being magnetism or contamination causing coils to stick together, or contact with another part of the watch.

You mentioned a scraping noise as you manually rotated the balance. Did you check that the hair spring was flat, parallel to the balance wheel, and not touching the balance cock or the balance wheel rim or spokes at any point in its travel?

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TimeAgainRoy New Member

TimeAgainRoy

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I had a similar trace on the timing machine, and the watch was gaining.

Once I de-magnatised the hairspring it was fine. Have you got a de-magnatiser?

Also is there any chance that the balance stop lever is out of shape and it is that which is rubbing.

As always - is there one problem, or more than one. Really looking forward to finding out the answer!
 

 

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BoweyUK Member

BoweyUK

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Thank you all for your help. This forum is great! So much help and advice on offer, I really appreciate it. Remember, I am new to servicing so forgive me for stupid answers or lack of knowledge but I am pulling my hair out over this. I've tried taking out the balance and pallet and checking the pallet stones etc but cannot find anything glaringly obvious. The hairspring looks out of shape to me but I can't really say from experience...I've added some pictures to this post for you guys to see. I have laid them flat on the bench. Also, a picture of the escapement with the balance removed is here too for anyone to have a look...

I think that i'm just no good with balances as I have another 2824-2 with the same issue!!! This time, it was running a little slow and I attempted to speed it up by moving the regulator and then it never ticked after that...I was gentle, very gentle but obviously screwed it up somehow.

 

Anyway, the problem on hand is this one pictured...It will run with the balance in place but it runs very fast! The timegrapher doesn't even pick up a reading and the noise is not like a normal beat, it makes a lot of noise, very tinny sounding if that makes any sense....

 

Have a look at the pictures. I'd love to hear your thoughts....

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RyMoeller Super WRT Addict

RyMoeller

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Posted (edited)

I've had a few watches do this.  Usually the problem is excessively low amplitude.  Getting to the bottom of the issue can be a bit of a chore though.  First I would check to make sure the cap jewels are secured correctly- if they are in upside down or have been swapped (top to bottom) then you could have issues.  Second thing to check is the hairspring.  A sticky hairspring will create all kinds of issues and is sometimes impossible to see with the naked eye.  I finally invested in Bergeon One Dip for this reason and it's made quite a difference.  Next I would inspect the pivots.  A pivot can be bent pretty easily and an even a minor bend would result in poor amplitude.  Lastly the palette.  I've had one with stones that were loose and another that was (for lack of a better term) cursed.  Under the microscope there was nothing I could find wrong with it but it would cause strange readings on the time grapher.  

I should point out that too much amplitude, 360 degrees or more, will register oddly on the timegrapher as well but I've not had that happen yet.  Too much amplitude would be the fault of a mainspring that was too strong.

Edited by RyMoeller
Edit for grammar
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BoweyUK Member

BoweyUK

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Hi,

 

I have just checked the cap jewels and they are fine. The hairspring may be the issue. It has gone through the cleaner though so should be ok...I will get some Bergeon one dip to try that. I'm just going to check the pivots right now maybe something will show up there...

One thing I should mention is that I have a few spare 2824 movements and have removed the balance and pallet from 2 others to swap out to diagnose a defective part....but nothing has changed. The same problem occurs...This makes me think that it is an issue with the way I am placing the balance....Is there a particular way it should be placed? Of course, I have been very careful to ensure the pivots all align and it all seems correct but maybe all the balances I am using are faulty....

I can't wait to get to the bottom of this one. I feel that if I do, I will have learnt a lot and overcome a real problem!

 

 

Thanks again for all of your help!

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