Jump to content

Recommended Posts

The oscillator, or something, in my automatic wrist watch seems to be greatly affected by outside temperature (summer vs winter).

It seems to run fast in the summer, and even faster in winter (The manufacturer said they could adjust it).

Q:  Is this difference with temperature normal/possible?

and

Q:  What would cause this?  [a poor choice of hair spring material (stiffer in cold = higher rate)??? a poor choice in lubricant???]

Thoughts?

As an Engineer, I like to understand causes and effects.

As far as my watch is concerned, I will be surprised if there is a year round fix.

-E-

Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, you asked for it! :)

The bimetallic compensated balance wheel was made obsolete in the early 20th century... Charles Édouard Guillaume won a Nobel prize for the 1896 invention of Invar, a nickel steel alloy with very low thermal expansion, and Elinvar (Elasticité invariable) an alloy whose elasticity is unchanged over a wide temperature range, for balance springs. A solid Invar balance with a spring of Elinvar was largely unaffected by temperature, so it replaced the difficult-to-adjust bimetallic balance. This led to a series of improved low temperature coefficient alloys for balances and springs.

Before developing Elinvar, Guillaume also invented an alloy to compensate for middle temperature error in bimetallic balances by endowing it with a negative quadratic temperature coefficient. This alloy, named anibal, is a slight variation of invar. It almost completely negated the temperature effect of the steel hairspring, but still required a bimetal compensated balance wheel, known as a Guillaume balance wheel. This design later fell out of use in favor of single metal Invar balances with Elinvar springs. The quadratic coefficient is defined by its place in the equation of expansion of a material;

lθ=l0(1+αθ+βθ2){\displaystyle l_{\theta }=l_{0}(1+\alpha \theta +\beta \theta ^{2})\,}l_\theta = l_0 (1 + \alpha \theta + \beta \theta^2) \,
where;
l0{\displaystyle \scriptstyle l_{0}}\scriptstyle l_0 is the length of the sample at some reference temperature
θ{\displaystyle \scriptstyle \theta }\scriptstyle \theta is the temperature above the reference
lθ{\displaystyle \scriptstyle l_{\theta }}\scriptstyle l_\theta is the length of the sample at temperature θ{\displaystyle \scriptstyle \theta }\scriptstyle \theta
α{\displaystyle \scriptstyle \alpha }\scriptstyle \alpha is the linear coefficient of expansion
β{\displaystyle \scriptstyle \beta }\scriptstyle \beta is the quadratic coefficient of expansion
 
Also the hair spring:
Around 1900, a fundamentally different solution was created by Charles Édouard Guillaume, inventor of elinvar. This is a nickel-steel alloy with the property that the modulus of elasticity is essentially unaffected by temperature. A watch fitted with an elinvar balance spring requires either no temperature compensation at all, or very little. This simplifies the mechanism, and it also means that middle temperature error is eliminated as well, or at a minimum is drastically reduced.
 

Glucydur is a beryllium bronze; an alloy of beryllium, copper and iron. In addition to its low coefficient of thermal expansion, its hardness (400 Brinell), nonmagnetizability, and resistance to deformation and damage make it suited for making precision parts that must have high dimensional stability. Glucydur is also resistant to corrosion; it is rather inert chemically.

Glucydur was developed about the same time as another non-magnetic material, Nivarox.

Glucydur balance advantages over a nickel balance are simple: Glucydur (or beryllium bronze) resists deformation from temperature change or abuse much better than nickel so the balance wheel stays in balance and therefore keeps more consistent time.
 
Now for the movements offered by ETA:
 
The Standard and Elaboré calibers use Etachoc shock protection, a nickel balance wheel with a Nivarox 2 alloy hairspring, a Nivaflex NO mainspring, a steel pallet lever and escape wheel, and polyruby pallet jewels.
 
The Top and Chronometre calibers use Incabloc shock protection, a Glucydur balance wheel with an Anchron alloy hairspring, a Nivaflex NM mainspring, a Nivarox pallet lever and escape wheel, and ruby pallet jewels.
 
Anachron is said to be a better performing alloy than any Nivarox incarnation which is why it's used on the Top and Chronometer grades.
 
The difference between polyrubies and rubies is based in the manufacturing process. Polyrubies are made from powder that's heat pressed into shape. They're translucent, almost foggy. Rubies are cut from a man-made crystal that's formed in an electro-chemical process. They're completely transparent with better consistency.
 
ETAchoc                            Incabloc
 
         
 
Ok, all this information is a compilation of stuff I've been collecting on my search on the web that throws some light on the answer to your question....Now, the real question here is:
 
What movement are we talking about? In what conditions do you use it? Has it always behaved that way? It could be simply a magnetized movement or something more serious...which lead to the following extra questions: when was the last time it was serviced?....and by whom?
 
Cheers,
 
Bob  
Link to post
Share on other sites

Bob,

Thank you so much for the historical lesson on the progression of material development and selection.  It gave me a good excuse to break out my old Mischke Engineering Design book.

In the next week or so, when I send my watch to the manufacturer to be serviced, I will ask them about the innards of my timepiece.  If I learn more, I will certainly follow-up on this thread.

What I can tell you now is that my watch is made by Reactor.  It is their serial numbered flagship model known as the Poseidon Ti.  It has some sort of newer, more rugged design of automatic winding mechanism from Japan (the back of the watch has a window that lets you see this mechanism).

I bought it new.  It has always been fast. This will be it's first service.

I abuse it.  It endures salt water swiming, snorkeling, sailing. High altitude altitude snowboarding in fridgid conditions. The shock of golf swings, chopping wood, and of shooting firearms.  Vibrations such as chainsaw and grass wip.  It only comes off when I go to bed.  It has become a part of who I am.  If the service cures the summertime one second per hour gain it suffers from, this watch will be close to perfect for me.

Thanks again Bob for your prompt and detailed response.  I doubt anyone else will read this thread, but I certainly foud it interesting and educational.

v/r

  -E-

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi E,

I believe my explanation is only good (to a certain point) to Swiss watches. Your Reactor watch apparently has a Japanese Movement...and some of the same model have Quartz which doesn't use a balance wheel. I don't know at this point if your movement originated from Seiko or from Citizen. One thing is certain, it is a good movement, strong and a workhorse. Now, for the sake of curiosity, how long have you had your watch? and, does it winds and hacks?

If I'm not mistaken, if fairly new, it could be one of the new Seiko "replacing" the 7S26 types (I'd say NH35/36...) If old and can wind, it is likely Miyota/Citizen. Now, it is only a guess. Maybe the owners manual or any other paper that came with the watch can shed some light on this matter.

Check this link out since the movement you likely use in your watch is a direct descendant of this Seiko:

http://www.thepurists.com/watch/features/8ohms/7s26/

In any case, let us know what information you have about your particular watch movement!

Cheers,

Bob

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



  • Similar Content

    • By Dubey
      Automatic not winding.
      Manual also goes rough.
      Rotor moves freely but it has difficulty pushing the spring.
       
      If wound runs normal 42 hours.
       
      Came back from Brazil (five years) , took all watches in airplane and many automatics now have difficulty? Can they have gotten covid?
       
      Never had watch issues so exploring .
       
      Others with issues.
      Dubey aerodyn X2 this is the GMT alarm. Dubey Worldtimer works fine. 
      Citizens x2 bullheads, x2 8180 and the diver as well issues (not sure number is correct) issues, the Seiko 6139s x4 steady as they go....no issues 
      Omega coaxial all good.
      ????
      Very upsetting.  Let's focus on this one first. As here the winding is rough, the others this seems fine and don't have the glass back to validate . 
       
       


    • By JayS
      Been struggling through a number of #31 movements. This particular one was bought as a "running" watch, but it's been anemic from the start with some 80° of amplitude, just no momentum at all. I've cleaned it, oiled it, checked it and repeated some 3 times now, with nothing seeming to help.
      One thing I've noticed is that the unlubricated movement always sticks hard on the trailing palette pin. Give the pin or balance wheel a flick and the escapement wheel kicks the first pin out easily and then hangs on the 2nd. I've lubed the pins before (which is a bit tough) and this (along with other general oiling) gets it going with the poor amplitude, but never for long.
      Could the pin be bent in towards the wheel? Doesn't look it. Hairspring seems nicely shaped. I've lubed both pivots of the balance shaft and attempted to remove end-shake, but that adjustable brass pivot is getting pretty mauled.
      I'm really trying to avoid taking this movement apart completely. Any thoughts? Thanks!
    • By Marc5555
      So there is this timex automatic i found online from a reputable seller. I cant find much about it anywhere. Ive been looking for a timex automatic but already have a few watches that look like the marlin. This one is a little different and i like it. Any info would be greatly appreciated

    • By jackie01
      Hello everybody,

      I open this thread to archive works on Citizen 8110A Bullhead. I purchased this watch in poor condition as You can see on the photos.


      Cause I have serviced few chronographs in the past I decide to try restore this watch. Maybe is not ractional from the economical aspect but we do this because we love it So let's open it.

      Hands are in good condition (required repaint and relume) but the dial has broken legs and tachy scale is faded :/ I think it's really hard to find orginal and there is no gold aftermarket replacement - sad. Look at the movement.







       
      Gosh, what a dirty place It needs good cleaning and oiling. 
      But the biggest problems are this.


       
      Broken post on main spring bridge and missing rocking bar core and screw in gear train. I need to find replacement.

      While I'll be working on movement the case and pushers are send to renew - putting new gold plated coat

       

      Stay tuned
       
       
    • By Evan
      Hi all, I'm new here, but have been watching the videos on YouTube for a while now, and used them to educate myself on the nature of mechanical watches. Thanks for the great videos Mark! You helped take the mystery and fear out of these works of art.
  • Recently Browsing

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Good job! A long time ago I bought a "set" of three old pocket movements for spare parts. But... decided to simply repair them. One of the movements was same as yours. Last week I finally replaced the broken balance staff. Obviously, someone previously already went through this exercise leaving hammering marks on the balance. After some truing & poising things look promising.  Did you install GR6880-TB mainspring?
    • No, the balance doesn't have shock protection (at least, in my unqualified eye, it doesn't appear so - see photos). I don't believe the jewel in the bottom came out of the mounting plate.  I just unscrewed that one screw, took off the plate, cleaned the underside of the plate (and the top of the hole it revealed) and put it back. I didn't mess with the top jewel at all.
    • It's in normal operation mode (chrono off).
    • Hi all I'm trying to repair this one for an old Viet Nam marine buddy, who said it hasn't run since the day his grampa gave it to him just before he deployed. What I found was that the upper pivot of the balance staff was gone along with the balance cock upper hole jewel was cracked  and chipped. I was able to secure a NOS balance, staff and hairspring assembled, and lucky enough that all the jewels and fits were good. I added a new white alloy mainspring for the heck of it, cleaned and lubed everything. Assembled it and put some power to the mainspring to check it all over to find what I thought was excessive endplay. I took the balance back down and under the microscope to find it looks like the staff upper pivot(or the staff OAL) isn't long enough to fit, or reach into the upper jewel when assembled. Is that possible? is the hairspring collet not staked to the shoulder? (I haven't gotten that far).  1) should I mic the staff overall length and try and find a longer one? 2) I see there are stake marks between the balance cock and base plate seemingly to raise it up or for binding issues. should I blend those down flush? 3) should I attempt to find a different balance/bridge/hairspring assy. and replace the whole thing? it wants to run that's for sure and does intermittently, which, after all the work, is encouraging to me. I'm soooo close. Can I fix this? much obliged- Mike    
    • Just use your other hand as a guard while you are removing or installing the balance
×
×
  • Create New...