Watch runs well dial side up, but not dial side down

[ricardopalamino]

8 hours ago, jdm said:

I was being sarcastic...I'm more amateur than anyone else

I think there are very, very few watchmakers that both have real need for and are qualified to use it.

Hey there jdm , Thanks for clarifying that , Whew , I thought I would have to sell a couple of Rolex to get one so I could keep up with the rest of the crowd .

  I actually only recently , finally got a timegrapher and realize now what a great tool that is .  But then , I only recently got my first green work mat .

[swordfish]

UPDATE AUG. 28, 2016:

I took the watch apart again. The entrance pallet jewel was again displaced anteriorly and tilted. The first time I fixed it I thought that the shellac already in the pallet stone setting would suffice to hold the stone in place. Not so, apparently. So I added some shellac with the second repair, and I feel secure about it now.

But I'm still having trouble with the wheel train! Even with the pallet and balance wheel removed, the wheel train is fussy. I figure that it should whir with just a slight winding of the stem. Sometimes it does, but other times it does not. I very carefully checked the pivot jewels and pivots. I could find no defect. I very carefully checked that all the pivots were properly centered in their jewels. They were. When the watch would run, it did so with a feeble arc, perhaps 120 degrees. (See video I'll attach.) The sound of the escape wheel teeth striking the pallet was not loud enough to trigger my Timegrapher accuracy measuring device. When the wheel train stops, sometimes lifting the bridge a wee bit will get it running again, albeit feebly.

So my current thinking is that their is simply too much friction along the wheel train. I'm going to take it apart and clean it again. I hope I don't break anything in the attempt.

The good news is that every time I make a mistake, my skills grow. But, oh, there are so many mistakes to be made!

https://vimeo.com/180462329

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[ricardopalamino]

I'll place my bet and say that it's possible that when you reassembled the watch that you put the wrong screw in from the dial side , and it's too long  , and comes in under the winding barrel and makes contact with the barrel hindering free movement . 

I will admit that I have done that in the past and now check the length and location of the screws on disassembly .

[Marc]

When you first cleaned the movement did you open the mainspring barrel? and if so what state was the main spring in? When there is a problem with insufficient power at the output end of the system it's worth bearing in mind that as well as losses within the system the problem could be insufficient power going into the system at the other end.

If you took the mainspring out for inspection, cleaning and re-ubricating, how did you get it back in? hand winding or mainspring winder?

The main spring should lie flat on the work bench without any twisting or buckling. If it doesn't then power will be lost in the barrel as the edge of the main spring bears against the barrel lid and base. It is very easy when hand winding a spring back into the barrel to introduce out of flat distortions which is why a main spring winder is so useful; it significantly reduces the risk of this kind of problem.

With the spring out of the barrel did you check the end shake, side shake, and free rotation of the barrel around the arbor, this is another potential source of loss.

Once you are happy with all of the above and you have checked that all of the pivot holes are really clean and there are no cracked or chipped jewels then the next step is to test at each stage of reassembly.

Sometimes the only way to isolate the problem is to test each wheel individually, even if it means lots of taking apart and putting back together again. Start with the barrel bridge. Install the barrel and test its freedom to rotate in situ, then move on to the train bridge and install just 1 wheel and put the bridge back on. Test the freedom of the wheel using a blower, and check side and end shake. Once you are happy add the next wheel, replace the bridge and test again. If all is well then add the next, if not then take out all of the wheels except the last one installed and test that one on its own.

If it doesn't spin freely on its own then the place to focus on is the pivots. If it does spin freely on its own then reinstall the next wheel back to see how it performs when it interacts with that. If that is where the problem is then inspect the teeth on both wheels and pinions; you're looking for debris, and damaged or worn teeth. Also check the pivots again. It is possible that a pivot which is slightly bent can still spin freely in its jewels on its own but has a lateral oscillation which can interfere with the depthing with its neighbour.

Follow this systematically through the entire train from main spring to escape wheel and you should find the issue.

[ricardopalamino]

Great response Marc ,...Efficient troubleshooting ...

Thanks , Louis

[clockboy]

Looking at the vid there does not seem much wrong apart from what appears to be a low amplitude. The only way forward is to go over everything again. If the wheel are free running without the barrel installed, If OK then attach the barrel give it a few winds & see if the wheels still turn freely. I suspect if these two checks prove OK then I suspect the problem is the pallet you have been working on. Perhaps the pallet stones are two deep. If too deep then it will struggle to run smoothly. See below how little depth is needed.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever_escapement#/media/File:Paletteankerhemmung.gif

[swordfish]

I want to thank all you gentlemen for the advice, and the time you took to so graciously share it. That I shall reject some of the advice is not to be interpretted as not appreciating it. Rather, some of the advice simply seems inapplicable to my particular circumstance.

Ricardopalamino, I had not removed any screw from the dial side of the watch. The mainspring barrel turns normally, and I feel normal resistance as I wind the watch.

Marc, I did not open the mainspring barrel. It winds normally, and when I release the click, it unwinds with full vigor. Therefore, I don't think the problem lies within the mainspring, its barrel, and perhaps not with its interface with the second wheel. The advice you give about step-by-step checking downstream from the mainspring barrel is excellent, and--of course!--will take me forever to do. Nonetheless, it's probably what I need to do to get this watch running properly, or running at all.

Clockboy, your suggestion of testing the wheel train with-and-without the mainspring barrel in place also seems good. As for the pallet being the problem...well, I'm a newbie, but I don't see how that could be an INTERMITTENT problem, showing up only afer a few minutes of normal ticking.

Again, thanks to all of you.

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[swordfish]

Progress (of sorts) report of August 29, 2016.

I took apart the watch again, and carefully inspected every jewel, pivot, and tooth. I found no defect. I reassembled it, minus the pallet and hairspring. A slight wind of the crown set the gears in proper motion. (See first attached video.)

When I replaced the pallet and hairspring, at first the watch seemed to be improved. The amplitude was still low, but probably greater than before, I thought. I was troubled, though, that the ticking was still so faint (which I take to indicate a still inadequate amplitude). Also, I noticed that the watch had gone out of beat, as assessed by eyeball, since the ticking wasn't loud enough to be detected by the Timegrapher. Nonetheless, I finished the re-assembly, put the watch into beat (by rotating the hairspring until the pallet arm pointed right at the balance wheel arbor while at rest), put the hands on, and put the watch back into the case. (See second attached video.)

It ran for a few hours. During that time it gained a few minutes, which I think is another clue.

Because I had put the hands back on the watch, I was able to detect another important clue. The watch would stop episodically, but always at a multiple of exactly one minute. Because it didn't always stop at one minute, I had not detected the "regular irregularity" of the watch before I put the hands back on.

I am certain that the sweep second hand is not touching the dial. To investigate the stopping at multiples of one minute, I plan to re-examine the pivots and teeth of the fourth wheel, hopefully tomorrow.

A fourth wheel tooth or pivot problem, however, would not explain the low amplitude. My current suspicion is that the hairspring has some dirt or magnetic adhesions between coils. That would explain, I think, the quickly noticed gaining of time. It would probably also explain why the watch had gone out of beat, and perhaps even the low amplitude. It would also explain why the gear train performed well before the pallet and hairspring were set into place, but not so much afterward.

I'm sharing all these tortuous (and perhaps torturous) steps forward and backward so that others can learn from my errors and findings, and to share the quest with you. This reminds me of the approach to diagnosing a sick patient, using logical steps and testing, and often finding that the patient has multiple diagnoses.

https://vimeo.com/180558311

https://vimeo.com/180558388

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[clockboy]

Well believe it or not you have made progress you now know it is the escapement that is at fault. By any chance is to magnetised. IE when running are the coils sticking together. 

Example I serviced/repaired a Citizen with (8200a movement) & it ran great on test & over 24hrs on my watch winder it kept excellent time. I wore it for a few days & noticed it was running really fast. I put it on my timographer it showed real low amplitude with a + 125 s/d. The reason was it had got magnetised when I was messing with my bike & I had used a magnet when looking for a screw.

 

If it is not magnetism then I would purchase a new pallet & see the difference when fitted.

 

 

[swordfish]

Progress report, August 31, 2016: I've identified several, but perhaps not all, of the problems affecting my watch.

I noticed that when the watch would (episodically) stop suddenly, the hairspring would continue to oscillate for a while, but would not release the escape wheel tooth. Manually rocking the pallet similarly did not allow the next escapement tooth to drop. The escape wheel even resisted manual pressure then. At other times, forcing motion of the 4th wheel would vigorously advance the escape wheel. I concluded that my repair of the pallet entrance jewel stone had been inadequate. The stone was still a smidge too extended, allowing proper interaction with the escape wheel MOST of the time, but not EVERY time. Again I fired up my trusted alcohol lamp, and pushed the stone more deeply into its setting. Now the pallet/ escape wheel interface is working perfectly.

I also noticed that there were two defects in the hairspring. The first coil was touching the second coil at its distal (from the pallet) arc. Also, there was a weird bend in the hairspring between its stud and the regulator curb pin such that the hairspring touched the first coil of the hairspring.See photos. I have, in my amateurish fashion, corrected those problems.

After doing that, the watch would run vigorously, but still stop dead episodically.

I had already checked every tooth of the 4th wheel, and every leaf of its pinion. They were perfect, as was that wheel's pivot jewels. Then I noticed the next pathology! The 4th wheel, which lies in a very narrow cleft between the ratchet wheel and the mainspring barrel cover, was episodically touching the latter. See photos.

It was then I read that gear train wheels may need to be tried, just as the balance wheel does.

At this point I don't know how many of these pathologies were present before I opened the watch, and how many I clumsily created. My next step will be to true the 4th wheel.

So far I have lost only one screw in this process, one from the wheel bridge. If I am successful at getting this baby ticking again, I'll order a replacement for it.

alt="c95d6201c25d1937c71698a9e8aec489.jpg">

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[swordfish]

Lack of progress report, September 1, 2016.

In preparation to true the 4th wheel, I dug out the truing caliper I bought a few years ago on eBay. I have little experience with it. I believe that the wheel pivots should go in the larger holes. But I don't know if the alignment bar can be moved to the other side of the calipers, or should be so moved. I notice that the picture on the box this antique came in is somewhat different, showing proper knobs where I find only button-like projections. Is this tool usable—if do, how?—or must I reach into my pocket to buy a replacement for it?

Thanks for the ongoing help, friends!

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[ricardopalamino]

Hi Swordfish ,  I respect and admire your perseverance with this project and have no doubt that you will prevail . 

I have seen truing calipers for sale many times but don't know the first thing about how they are used . I'll be watching with a keen eye on the proper use of this contraption . 

Good luck , 

Louis

[DocTomoe]

Hi Swordfish,

I do not know anything about truing calipers, but have the attached document on their use, so maybe you can find something useful in there.

Good luck,

Olivier

chicago lesson 16.PDF

[szbalogh]

1 hour ago, DocTomoe said:

Hi Swordfish,

I do not know anything about truing calipers, but have the attached document on their use, so maybe you can find something useful in there.

Good luck,

Olivier

chicago lesson 16.PDF

Wow this is a great lession! Are there others? Can i have them please?

[DocTomoe]

1 hour ago, szbalogh said:

Wow this is a great lession! Are there others? Can i have them please?

There are many others indeed, I think something like 36 in total. I do not know what the link sharing policy here is, but if you Google for "chicago school of watchmaking iso", you should find a download link to a copy of the original CD fairly easily. Not sure however if there may be copyright issues, but I understand that the lessons date from the 50's 60's.

[szbalogh]

5 minutes ago, DocTomoe said:

There are many others indeed, I think something like 36 in total. I do not know what the link sharing policy here is, but if you Google for "chicago school of watchmaking iso", you should find a download link to a copy of the original CD fairly easily. Not sure however if there may be copyright issues, but I understand that the lessons date from the 50's 60's.

Excellent! Thank You!

[swordfish]

Progress report, September 5, 2016.

I am more convinced than before that the fourth wheel was the (current) culprit in stopping my watch. The wheel itself seemed perfectly true in the flat to me (see photo). But I noticed that the wheel was not sitting perfectly perpendicular to its arbor (see second photo). As I was inspected the wheel, trying to figure out if I could use a staking tool to rectify (pun intended) the angle between the arbor and the plane of the wheel, the little **BLEEP** leaped out of my tweezers, striking my nose. It has not been seen since then. The wheel, that is; my nose remains in its customary place and configuration.

I'll also attach a photo of the carpeted floor under my workbench, enough to give hives to any proper watchmaker. Such is my lot. For me to replace the carpet, I'd have to get a divorce, and I didn't have in mind to spend that much money.

One tiny benefit of the loss of the fourth wheel is that, during my search in the carpet, I found the crown wheel ring which I had lost weeks ago (and for which I serendipitously already had a replacement).

So now I've ordered a replacement fourth wheel, as well as a replacement screw for the wheel bridge which I THINK is the proper size.

I share these travails with you to give encouragement and caution to fellow newbies.


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[ricardopalamino]

 

"the little **BLEEP** leaped out of my tweezers, striking my nose. It has not been seen since then. The wheel, that is; my nose remains in its customary place and configuration. "

 

Maybe it went up your nose ? Give a good sneeze , and let us know .

[bobm12]

But..bu...bbut...the fourth wheel is right there on the picture of the carpet!!!! Ha, Ha, I got you there!  Good luck trying to find that wheel in THAT carpet!!!

Well, no, seriously, sorry you lost that wheel, it happens to the best of us. I just had to have a little laugh to make up for the many hours I spend looking for the parts I loose....As a rule of thumb, after losing 4 parts I get one back and the count resets once the house is cleaned!

Cheers,

Bob

PS. Good progress and I'm following it with a lot of interest.

[swordfish]

PROGRESS REPORT, SEPTEMBER 11, 2016

My watch is now running just as a dog walks on two legs: he doesn't do it well, but that he does it at all is remarkable.

I inserted the new fourth wheel with no difficulty. I even found the wheel bridge screw I lost last week, and re-inserted it. (The replacement I had ordered hoping it would be the right size did not fit.)

As you can hear and see in the attached video, the watch is running, but running quite irregularly. Notice, please, how eccentric the hairspring is relative to the balance staff, with most of it evident above the balance staff in the video. I think that that hairspring is the cause of the irregularity.

https://vimeo.com/182327048

I was hoping that I wouldn't need to address the hairspring, but the watch gave up the ghost after about only four hours. I've never repaired a hairspring before, and I am concerned that my intervention may worsen the problem.

I removed the balance assembly, and somehow got the hairspring out from between the index pins. (I couldn't find a slot for a twist of a screwdriver as Mark shows in his videos.). But the stud seems to be stuck in its hole in the balance cock. (See picture.) Because there is no screw in the hole perpendicular to the stud, I am assuming that it's a friction fit stud. Does that seem right to y'all? How do I remove the stud? Taking a carpenter's hammer to it seems excessive.

[bobm12]

I love the way the dog....err, the watch runs!

Yes, you are right, it could very well be the hairspring, Swordfish. For what I see, it looks like the screw that secures the post is missing...but then, my computer is not too good at pictures. If it is missing, you just need to push it back in place and find a screw that fits (hopefully the same general type as used for that regulator or whatever the name is). Now, it does seems like the hairspring is "falling" downwards which might be knocking against something. Hopefully if you fix the stud it will go back to its normal position....I don't know, it is only a guess. Let us know how you get on.

Cheers,

Bob 

[swordfish]

Thanks, Bob, but my problem is the opposite of what you're addressing. My problem isn't getting the stud INTO the balance cock; I can't get the stud OUT of the cock. If the original design called for a retention screw to hold the stud in place, its absence, if anything, should make it easier to remove, not more difficult. Help!


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[bobm12]

I don't know but, is it showing underneath? If it is, maybe by pushing it out?

[swordfish]

I tried pushing the stud from underneath the cock...no success. I even tried pushing with a pusher from my staking tool. I did NOT yet try putting the cock on the staking tool itself to give it a well directed whack using a hammer. I would have to remove the collet from the balance staff to do that. Since I'll eventually have to remove the collet from the staff anyhow, that's not out of the question. But it'll be cumbersome to have the cock on the staking tool table with the hairspring still attached.
—Eric


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[Cad101]

I love your dedication to this project I know that I with your determination your going to get it up and running in a respectable manner in the not so distant future.