How to Open a Breitling Top Time 2000 Case

[Bungle]

Hi,

I have recently acquired this Breitling Top Time 2000 watch, and have finally decided to start renovating it. However, I cannot see any simple way of removing the stainless back - there is a lip all round the case which effectively hides the join!  I understand some Top Times were front loaders, but I have had the crystal out to replace it and can see no way of removing from the front either. The crown/stem wobbles quite a bit when pulled out to the setting position, but does not appear to want to simply pull out to separate (and I am scared to pull too hard for fear of snapping it!).

So can anyone advise me how to get the case back off, or how the crown should come out (slide apart or pull apart)?

Thanks in advance.

[Geo]

The stainless steel back looks like it should be opened with a case knife.

[sstakoff]

Can't read the markings on the back of the case. On the Top Times, if the back says Waterproof - that would be a good indicator that the back is not removable. But I agree with @Geo - from what I can see it looks like it's a case knife job. Are the markings on the back perfectly aligned? That is, when holding the watch with 12:00 up, is the Breitling name on the back perfectly level? Looking for a clue that the back has been removed in the past and possibly rotated a bit on replacement - just to confirm that it's removable.

As a side note - Breitling chronograph hands (particularly the second hand) have a tendency to separate from their pipes on removal. I recently experienced this. There's a thread here:

 

 

[Bungle]

Guys, thanks for the quick responses!  The engraving on the back says  "Breitling, waterproof, Antimagnetic, Shock Protected, Stainless Steel Back, Swiss Made, 2000" and is pretty much aligned in the case (text horizontal with 12.00 up). The lip around the case will prevent access to the back with a case knife, unless I butcher the edge of the case like someone else did: found this picture online, and do NOT want to have to do this to mine!

So if the case back is not removable, how do I get the movement out?  When I took the crystal out, the whole movement wiggled slightly when you pulled the stem out to the setting position, but I could not see a way of getting it out unless I had to really pull the stem to get the crown off and I was too scared to pull that hard!

Any other suggestions gratefully received!

[sstakoff]

If it is indeed a front loader - it will have a split stem that basically just pulls apart. Mark has a video on just this topic. I seem to be having trouble pasting links to videos, but the video is titled "How to open a watch with no back".

Mark uses a modified hand removing tool to pull the crown. I usually use a pair of brass tweezers. A picture would be helpful but I'm on a train right now.... I can try and describe the technique. I pull the stem out as far as it normally goes. Place the tweezers in such a way as if you were going to grip the stem itself (not the crown). By then sliding the tweezers the taper of the tweezer body will wedge between the crown and case. If you continue to push, the taper gets wider and separates the stem. Use brass and be careful so as not to damage the case.

It's hard to describe the amount of force I use - but I just know by feel what is right. You obviously don't want to do this on a standard stem as you can damage the setting lever and possibly other keyless work components.

I did find a reference stating that the model 2000 was indeed a one-piece case - not sure if that means "ALL" of the 2000s or not - but it's starting to look that way. I recently serviced a watch - can't remember which - that had a similar gold tone case with a stainless back and it was definitely a one-piece.

Edited July 7, 2016 by sstakoff

[sstakoff]

That reference I mentioned can be found here:

http://www.vintage-watches-collection.com/watch/breitling/breitling-toptime-chronograph-steel-with-papers-1967/

 

[Cad101]

Looking on the net all top times I could find seem to be front loaders which would indicate a split stem you can usually tell if the case back sits in a lipped recess I've got a couple of elgins that have the same design, both have case damage where people have tried to remove the back without any luck.

[digginstony]

The tweezer type cannon pullers are ideal for removing a stem on a one piece case. Requires a bit of force so be confident. If it's not a split stem it shouldn't hurt the movement as it's designed to be removed that way. Quartz watches in one piece cases tend not to use split stems but you still give them a Good tug to get them out, it doesn't hurt the movement.

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[digginstony]

Just as a point of interest. I have a set of cheap tweezer type cannon pinion pullers and they are only good for pulling a stem out by its crown. Useless thing for trying to remove a stiff cannon pinion. Lever type hand remover seems to work best for me.

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[Bungle]

Guys,

Yes it was a split stem, and I have successfully removed the outer part with the crown - thanks for your kind offer @digginstony. Yet still the movement will not come out of the front - this is really starting to bug me now!

With the crystal removed there seems to be a silver metal ring inside the case, very thin but enough that the dial with tachy ring on will not pass through, as per the attached image.  Is it expected that the whole movement/dial assembly will just come out with the stem and pushers removed?  The second image (From Watch Guy website) shows a top time movement out through the front in one piece.

I was hoping to leave the internals alone for now, just getting the case refinished, so I don't really want to have to remove the hands and dial etc, but if it has to be then I guess I will. I guess I will try and heed @sstakoff's warning about the hands and pipes issue.

I am so nearly there, just need that last bit of help.

[sstakoff]

Hard to be certain from the pic, but it looks like you may have removed the crystal, but not the bezel. Is that possible?

How did you remove the crystal?

[digginstony]

I'm assuming the watch had acrylic crystal that you removed with appropriate grab remover. You need to push the remaining part of the stem back into the movement. With a plastic bag over the dial, try rotating the dial either way with your fingers. Dial face down on your fingers and hopefully it will fall out. Normally it's a rotation of 45 degrees

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[digginstony]

Forgot to say acrylic crystal if the bezel is still on ! But surely not.

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[Bungle]

Hi @sstakoff, I removed the crystal (acrylic) with a grabber tool.  I didn't think this watch had a bezel - certainly not an external type like I would imagine a bezel to be (like on a submariner). Nothing else metal came off with the crystal.

@digginstony Yes crystal removed with grabber, remaining stem pushed in, but the dial will not rotate. It goes a very small amount (less than one degree) in either direction and then stops. I am slightly scared that I might slip and break a register/hand.

If indeed this remaining ring is a 'bezel' how does one get it out when it is such a thin ring with no visible means of grabbing it? I have attached the whole picture this time so hopefully it shows exactly what and where this thin ring is - outside the tachy dial and inside the case.

[digginstony]

Acrylic crystal confirmed. Shouldn't have a detachable bezel. The metal around dial may well be part of the movement holder. I suspect may not be moving due to muck and crud accumulated over the years. Try giving the back of the case a good tap to see if you can get anything moving

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[digginstony]

Just realised check that bezel. Incase it is detachable. I'm thinking the original glass may of been replaced with an acrylic. Didn't the back of the case say 'Waterproof '

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[Bungle]

@digginstony, done that, no joy.  I am now thinking that the outer tachy dial might be separate piece which can (somehow) be removed, and could there be a couple of movement retaining screws underneath it? If that is the situation, how do I get the tachy dial off - there are virtually no gaps anywhere around it.

[digginstony]

I wouldn't attempt the tachy dial unless I absolutely knew it had to come off. Hopefully someone will come onto this thread with experience of this model of watch

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[jdm]

Is it possible that the ring around the dial is screwed or slotted into the case?

[Bungle]

Hi @jdmI don't think so as the ring is so thin and has no visible means of holding or grabbing it to turn or pull it.

[ro63rto]

Interesting piece on The Springbar about this range of watches.

http://thespringbar.com/collectors-guide-to-breitling-top-time/

Case, Crystal, and Bezel : -

Breitling Top Time watches came with round or cushion cases made from stainless steel, white metal, and 18-karat gold, or gold-plating material. The company started producing with cushion-shaped cases around the late 1960s and used them exclusively in Ref. 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, and 810. Case size was in the range of 35 mm to about 40 mm. The watches either had a plexiglass or acrylic domed crystal [23] and featured no bezel, except for Ref. 1765 and 7656.

Meanwhile, the caseback changed depending on the variation, specifically if the watches were waterproof or not. The Top Time waterproof variations, like Ref. 2001 and 2002, featured a removable case back. On the other hand, the non-waterproof variants, such as Ref. 2003, used a monocoque case. Despite the difference in case construction, the watches looked similar, thanks to the line milled into the case of non-waterproof variants which creates the illusion of a separate case back."

As I read it, yours should have a removable caseback.

[jdm]

9 minutes ago, ro63rto said:

Meanwhile, the caseback changed depending on the variation, specifically if the watches were waterproof or not. The Top Time waterproof variations, like Ref. 2001 and 2002, featured a removable case back. On the other hand, the non-waterproof variants, such as Ref. 2003, used a monocoque case. Despite the difference in case construction, the watches looked similar, thanks to the line milled into the case of non-waterproof variants which creates the illusion of a separate case back."

Interesting indeed. Waterproof has case back, non-waterproof is one piece. Some reverse thinking at IWC at that time?

[Bungle]

@ro63rto and @jdm, reading further into that piece, they quote:

"Ref. 2000.4

The 1964 water-resistant Breitling Top Time Ref. 2000.4 offered three dial variations. One variant (left) came with a silver sunburst dial and silver sub dials. It also appeared in reverse panda (center) and panda (right) executions."

This is obviously the option I have as it has a split stem, and a back that is clearly not removable due to the case lip obscuring the join.

My struggle to remove the movement continues though! I just hope that someone in this forum can help.

[Cad101]

The picture taken from the 'The watch guys' site shows the outer chapter ring removed and some tell tale holes which to me would indicate that the inner ring is removable. Maybe a poly bag and a hand lifter could be used to see if there is any movement in that ring.

On ‎07‎/‎07‎/‎2016 at 10:16 PM, Bungle said:

Guys,

Yes it was a split stem, and I have successfully removed the outer part with the crown - thanks for your kind offer @digginstony. Yet still the movement will not come out of the front - this is really starting to bug me now!

With the crystal removed there seems to be a silver metal ring inside the case, very thin but enough that the dial with tachy ring on will not pass through, as per the attached image.  Is it expected that the whole movement/dial assembly will just come out with the stem and pushers removed?  The second image (From Watch Guy website) shows a top time movement out through the front in one piece.

I was hoping to leave the internals alone for now, just getting the case refinished, so I don't really want to have to remove the hands and dial etc, but if it has to be then I guess I will. I guess I will try and heed @sstakoff's warning about the hands and pipes issue.

I am so nearly there, just need that last bit of help.

 

[Cad101]

Not the "chapter ring" the case ring just to be clear.