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Replacement of Roller Jewel on Balance Pinion?

jdrichard
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Rafal WRT Addict

Rafal

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new jewels are quite expensive, and you get 3 of them in the package if I remember correctly. I would start to check first part number you need for this model, and then try ebay. Im not illinois expert, but Im sure there are factory catalogs with part numbers, easy to find, or you could go for new one but thats require some measurements to be taken before purchase. Sometime you can get new old stock for reasonable price. Regarding shelac, you would need dewaxed one - there are 2 types available. Regarding how to install - Fred's book explain it, with illustrations.

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jdrichard Distinguished Member

jdrichard

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Can you glue in a roller jewel? I understand shellac is the standard for this operation , however, with today's glues, there must be a replacement! As well, what is the technique. This is my first shot at this operation and I know I will be covered in shellac by the end of it. Can I use a soldering iron to heat up the shellac? How do I get the jewel and the shellac in the hole. Sorry for the novice questions .

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Rafal WRT Addict

Rafal

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to warm roller table you can use this tool:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pallet-Fork-Warming-Tool-with-wood-handle-out-of-a-Watchmakers-Estate-/371644636975?hash=item5687bf1f2f:g:cTgAAOSwboVXOhS5

you can find it for about 8-10$, I just pasted first Ive found. This is also called combination tool, it has some more uses :) than just roller jewel.

How to prepare shelack for jewel installation please see this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY28dap5Zqg

 

I would not advise glue as well, shelack give you chance to manipulate jewel or replace it easily, glue could be kind of permanent solution...

Procedure you could find in henry fried watch repairer's manual

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sstakoff WRT Addict

sstakoff

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Roller jewels are either round or half round (having one flat face). Can't be sure, but from the photo it looks like you need one with a flat face. If you can't find the exact part number, you can use a jewel gauge like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-WATCHMAKER-ROLLER-JEWEL-GAUGE-SWISS-MADE-SV498-/191838117461?hash=item2caa715e55:g:ty8AAOSwBnVW-zsH

You use the gauge on the fork of the lever to determine the correct width of the jewel. You want a good fit, with a little play. The height of the jewel is important as well - when installing you don't want it to interfere with the safety action / guard pin.

I totally agree that shellac is the right approach due to its adjustability - you can warm it up just a tad and then fine tune the jewel placement which will almost certainly be required if this is your first time.

The tool referenced above is great for holding the roller table - and it is used to gently heat the roller - you apply the heat to the tail of the tool - indirectly heating the roller. You typically place a small dab of shellac on the brass tool itself to judge when the heat is sufficient - the dab will melt.

There are also a number of devices that can be used to hold the jewel itself in place / vertical while setting.Do a google search for "roller jewel setting tool". They also appear from time to time on ebay. I also just checked uncle larry's http://www.execulink.com/~lfoord/tools.html

He has a gauge and a setter available now. Let us know how it goes!

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Rafal WRT Addict

Rafal

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Actually I have small amount of roller jewels, so if you have size I can look for it, and if you lucky I will have it and can send it to you. For double roller they are marked "short" because of guard pin on palet fork - it has to be shorter than single roller ones. Ive got set of vials with roller jewels, but only some is with something inside :(. 

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jdrichard Distinguished Member

jdrichard

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Is it possible to use the heat from a soldering iron to melt the shellac? I also have these sticky part pick-er-upper tool for picking up very small parts. I could use this to hold the jewel. I would need to create my own technique. I may need to get the Guage set to properly source the part.

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sstakoff WRT Addict

sstakoff

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You should certainly not apply heat directly to the roller as you can damage it. In Mark's video he uses a simple brass bar - something you can pick up for a few dollars. I suppose you could use the soldering iron to heat the brass - but that doesn't seem too efficient. You can either pick up a cheap alcohol (spirit) lamp or even use a pocket lighter to heat the brass.

As far as the gauge - you can use some assorted solid copper electrical wire to find the correct size. If you know the wire gauge, you then know the diameter which should be enough to source a jewel. Can't hurt to try. If you have a micrometer or caliper set you can use any wire or pin and measure that.

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jdrichard Distinguished Member

jdrichard

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You should certainly not apply heat directly to the roller as you can damage it. In Mark's video he uses a simple brass bar - something you can pick up for a few dollars. I suppose you could use the soldering iron to heat the brass - but that doesn't seem too efficient. You can either pick up a cheap alcohol (spirit) lamp or even use a pocket lighter to heat the brass.

As far as the gauge - you can use some assorted solid copper electrical wire to find the correct size. If you know the wire gauge, you then know the diameter which should be enough to source a jewel. Can't hurt to try. If you have a micrometer or caliper set you can use any wire or pin and measure that.

Brilliant advice. I do have a micrometer. I would simply find the right fit and then measure the wire. I really don't want to remove the hairspring, so I may hold the unit in a piece of pith wood in a vice for stability.

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sstakoff WRT Addict

sstakoff

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Well that's a whole other story :(

You shouldn't need to remove the hairspring from the balance - BUT you should remove the roller from the balance! For one thing, especially given this is your first time, you don't want the shellac to foul the balance or staff. When it melts it gets drawn into the jewel hole and comes out the other side. You can see this clearly in Mark's video above. Placing the roller flat on a piece of brass also has the benefit that the jewel will be flush with the back of the roller table automatically. You can pick up a roller remover very cheap and that's a tool that's worth having. There are many styles. I prefer this:

590342.jpg

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sstakoff WRT Addict

sstakoff

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Also - be aware that some double rollers are actually two piece doubles which require 2 operations to remove correctly. You also need a proper staking tool to replace the roller (and in the case of a 2 piece - the safety roller)

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szbalogh Super WRT Addict

szbalogh

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Just now, sstakoff said:

Ugh!

Well, it seems crazy for the first look :) Shellac is also used to mount parts on the lathe. I found that hotlgue is perfect for the same pusrpose. Maybe it does the job for pallet and roller jewels as well, just a theory. Please note that I am an inexperienced hobbyst and dont have shellac neither the repair currently that need it. 

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jdrichard Distinguished Member

jdrichard

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Roller jewels are either round or half round (having one flat face). Can't be sure, but from the photo it looks like you need one with a flat face. If you can't find the exact part number, you can use a jewel gauge like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-WATCHMAKER-ROLLER-JEWEL-GAUGE-SWISS-MADE-SV498-/191838117461?hash=item2caa715e55:g:ty8AAOSwBnVW-zsH

You use the gauge on the fork of the lever to determine the correct width of the jewel. You want a good fit, with a little play. The height of the jewel is important as well - when installing you don't want it to interfere with the safety action / guard pin.

I totally agree that shellac is the right approach due to its adjustability - you can warm it up just a tad and then fine tune the jewel placement which will almost certainly be required if this is your first time.

The tool referenced above is great for holding the roller table - and it is used to gently heat the roller - you apply the heat to the tail of the tool - indirectly heating the roller. You typically place a small dab of shellac on the brass tool itself to judge when the heat is sufficient - the dab will melt.

There are also a number of devices that can be used to hold the jewel itself in place / vertical while setting.Do a google search for "roller jewel setting tool". They also appear from time to time on ebay. I also just checked uncle larry's http://www.execulink.com/~lfoord/tools.html

He has a gauge and a setter available now. Let us know how it goes!

I now have the tool, the jewel and the shellac. I now need to know how to hold the roller table with the tool? As well, do I need to remove the roller table from the balance shaft. I know I need to remove the hairspring.

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2a48d45a9403440c31d3e69c5126fe8f.jpg

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szbalogh Super WRT Addict

szbalogh

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You have a bimetallic heat-compensation balance which supposed to compensate some degrees of temperature change. I dont know but i can imagine that the high temperature needed for shellack may hurt the bimetallic joint. I wouldnt take off the roller table if its a simple balance. 

Or You use hot glue or nail polish :startle::D

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