Regulator Pins

[Scouseget]

Hi from soggy Edmonton.

I have just overhauled, as in cleaned, reassembled, and lubricated, a lovely 1908 Waltham pocketwatch, which amazingly started up on the first shake - law of averages perhaps? Anyway, the problem is that when I tried to adjust the time, via the star wheel on the regulator, it didn't seem to make any difference, even though the regulator pins were moving with this adjustment. 

I checked that the hairspring is located between the pins, which it is, but only just as it is riding very low rather than being centered up vertically between them, as may be evident in the attached photos. The pins also seem to be gripping the hairspring but I'm really not sure if that is the way it should be or not - I assumed that a hairspring should always be between the pins, riding higher than shown, and not actually gripped by them. 

So, might this be the problem, i.e., the regulator pins gripping the hairspring and/or the hairspring not riding higher up between the pins? If one, or both, or these, what is the recommended fix? I'm guessing, but will be happy to be wrong, that I should open up the gap between the pins to ensure that they stopping gripping the spring, but how about making the spring ride higher between the pins?

Tricky stuff this - the devil really is in the details isn't it?

As always, it's great to be able to tap into so much accumulated experience and skill, hopefully one day I'll actually be able to contribute more than just all these relentless questions I have. Your help really is very much appreciated, thank you all. 

[oldhippy]

You can undo the small screw and lift it a little, the hair spring should always be free from the pins and when working it should look as if it is bouncing of the pins no matter where the position of the pins are with the hairspring in between, don't open them to much as this will affect the time keeping. The other thing is don't lift the stud to much and cause the hairspring to rub on the balance cock always make sure it is clearly away from everything.

[JohnR725]

Where the hairspring is between the regulator pins looks right except it really should be in the watch to see if it actually is right. American pocket watches don't exactly follow the rules of modern regulator pins. Ideally the pins should be absolutely parallel pocket watches they are usually tapered many times. Which is usually considered bad but it's the way they were made.. Then hairspring may not actually bounce between the pins. The important thing for the hairspring is that it can freely move between the pins when the regulator is moved. If it's too tight bad things happen if they're too far apart they can have interesting timing consequences.

So the best way to look at your hairspring to see if it's right is in the watch. The hairspring should come off of the stud parallel straight through the regulator pins spiraling downward with a variety of over coil methods and then the hairspring should be flat. Ideally it should still be flat when it's moving and not rippling in peculiar artistic patterns.

How much timekeeping adjustment are you expecting by moving the regulator? Then your balance wheel has 2 mean time screws which can be used for timing adjustment. This is where possessing a timing machine is really nice. Then as this is a bimetallic balance make sure the arms are where there supposed to be it forms a nice circle. Oftentimes the arms either get bent in or out and they will have a dramatic effect on timekeeping.

[oldhippy]

Only with breguet hairspring there shouldn't be any movement between pins. JohnR725 where did you get your info from.

[jdm]

54 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Only with breguet hairspring there shouldn't be any movement between pins. JohnR725 where did you get your info from.

I'm afraid that you haven't read correctly what he wrote. Nowhere he wrote that.

[oldhippy]

The hairspring may not actually bounce between the pins. The hairspring should come off of the stud parallel straight through the regulator pins spiraling downward with a variety of over coil methods and then the hairspring should be flat.

That to me is identifying a  breguet hairspring, which it is not. 

[JohnR725]

9 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

The hairspring may not actually bounce between the pins. The hairspring should come off of the stud parallel straight through the regulator pins spiraling downward with a variety of over coil methods and then the hairspring should be flat.

That to me is identifying a  breguet hairspring, which it is not. 

I think there's a confusion here the picture of the hairspring hanging makes it look like a flat hairspring but if you look carefully at the downward view this appears to be a standard 1908 Waltham Over coil / breguet hairspring.

So I found a Waltham with the hairspring that should be very similar to yours. The only difference is the regulator pins are nice and parallel.

So from the side view you can see the hairspring pinned to the stud traveling parallel because you can use the balance wheel as a reference through the regulator pins that is spirals downward to the rest of the hairspring. I also have a slightly angled view so you can see how close the hairspring is to the bottom of the pins.

[oldhippy]

The picture of the pins is much clearer and are in the proper position unlike the original where they are clearly bent and all over the place.  What confused me is how it was worded ( variety of over coil methods and then the hairspring should be flat) which it clearly doesn't have and this ( American pocket watches don't exactly follow the rules of modern regulator pins) I have never heard of such a thing. You have explained it a lot better. Thank you. 

[JohnR725]

12 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Only with breguet hairspring there shouldn't be any movement between pins. JohnR725 where did you get your info from.

So I may not quite understand what you're asking as far as I know with most hairsprings the regulator pins or as the Swiss call them curb pins should be as close as possible to the hairspring without grabbing. Then the problem of specifically where did I get my information from is far too many sources too many years so as you're asking for an exact specific I grabbed a book from the shelf.

The book is titled  Watch Adjustmentv by Hans Jendritzki. I've scanned the relevant paragraph and attached the images.

[JohnR725]

9 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

The picture of the pins is much clearer and are in the proper position unlike the original where they are clearly bent and all over the place.  What confused me is how it was worded ( variety of over coil methods and then the hairspring should be flat) which it clearly doesn't have and this ( American pocket watches don't exactly follow the rules of modern regulator pins) I have never heard of such a thing. You have explained it a lot better. Thank you. 

Sorry for the confusion with wording. The problem with over coils is there are literally hundreds of different styles. So I just simplified the hairspring itself should be flat and the over coil should take the hairspring up to the regulator pins.

In one of the problems were having when evaluating hairsprings is when the hairspring is out of the watch because that is not where the problem is. We really need clear pictures of the hairspring in the watch which many times is almost impossible. Which can make evaluating a situation equally impossible.

 

[digginstony]

Hi ya,

Walthams employed breguet springs on their model 1899 and 1908 movements. Walthams adjuster is not particularly responsive anyway. Very minor variations can be achieved. Your spring looks fine to me where it's seated. When you assembled the watch did you ensure it was in "Beat" Anyway looking at your balance cock we should be dealing with at least a 15 jewel upwards movement, if original.

On the Balance wheel arm at either end you will see a screw, these are your timing screws (lower grade Walthams don't always have them) you screw in or out equally on both screws no more than quarter of a turn to increase or decrease oscillation of the spring until you reach acceptable timekeeping + or - 5 minutes a day , hopefully 2 minutes a day.

Tony

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[Scouseget]

2 hours ago, digginstony said:

On the Balance wheel arm at either end you will see a screw, these are your timing screws (lower grade Walthams don't always have them) you screw in or out equally on both screws no more than quarter of a turn to increase or decrease oscillation of the spring until you reach acceptable timekeeping + or - 5 minutes a day , hopefully 2 minutes a day.

Well, the regulator pins are not making any difference whatsoever to adjusting the time, however this may be because I did open them up so they are now parallel to each other instead of tapering down to a pinch point at the open end. Perhaps this has rendered them even less effective than they were before. Given this, can I ignore them all together, perhaps even removing them, and rely strictly on the timing screws as you suggested digginstony as adjusting these does appear to make a noticeable difference.

Do some watches use only timing screws and dispense with a regulator altogether, and if so, why don't all watch manufacturers go this way. Actually, I think I just realized the reason, which is probably because to get to the timing screws, you need to remove the movement from the case, whereas with a regulator you simply need to remove the back cover - yes?

[digginstony]

No you can't remove the pins they are very necessary for correct oscillation of the spring. Opening them up will generally cause a movement to run very slow or erratic.

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[JohnR725]

Usually what you do if you're using timing screws and a regulator is you put the regulator back at zero and adjust the timing screws to get really close the regulator is usually the final adjustment. One of the problems with thinking the timing screws can be used on a continuous basis is there threaded different than the rest of the screws on the balance wheel. In other words the normal screws on the balance wheel if you loosen them they will literally fall out there like a normal screw. The timing screws the threading is a little tight so that they can be out without falling out but if somebody plays with them enough they become loose which is a definite problem.

You didn't say whether the watch is running fast or slow or maybe I just didn't catch it? If the watches running fast make sure that the over coil is not touching the underside of the balance bridge. Or occasionally the over coil will bump into the center wheel and make sure it's not touching the balance arms.

The big reason for having a regulator is it makes it easy to bring the watch into time. As soon as you had complications like tossing the regulator the law of averages and watch repair is bad things start to happen. If the watchmaker doesn't grasp how the system works. Example of this Elgin employed a rather clever method of regulation without a regulator usually resulted in the balance pivots being broken. Or Rolex requires a special tool. Then even the simple concept of the mean time screws they get screwed on equally to the point where it's visually noticeable or they get screwed in nice and tight which makes them basically worthless.

[syfre]

I agree with oldhippy about the regulator but in my opinion it's not the problem in this case, even with regulator pins pinching the hairspring the regulator must have some action ; if not there is a pb elsewhere, like hairspring touching the balance cock or balance arms or something like that.

[Genecockrell]

Hi all, I have a quick question; How does one go about replacing regulator pins?

This concerns a 12s South Bend 407 that has a very similar regulator setup to the pictured Waltham in this thread. My problem is that one of the two regulator pins (the outboard one) is simply beaten up and when the watch is laid face up, the hairspring will slip ever so slightly, the watch starts making a strange noise and will start losing about 5 min/day.