Movement ID and cannon pinion problems

[JoeJBP]

Hi everyone,

I have this movement which is from a 60's Everite King. The movement has been running great while I have been refurbishing the rest of the watch but I've run into problems. 

I accidentally advanced the date too far and decided to pull the crown and wind the watch forward a full month. This was not the best idea as around 21 days in the winding began to feel much looser. The watch still runs but the minute and hour hands don't move. 

I am going to try to tighten the cannon pinion but I'm hoping that I can source a new one just in case. 

Regards. Joe. 

 

[ro63rto]

Looks like an AS 1746

Theres one on ebay at the moment.

EDIT : Sorry, 1747 as yours has date.

[Cad101]

Sounds like your Friction Pinion for Intermediate Train Wheel is loose and wants tightening to me.

see this thread AS1900 to1906 have similar problems

 

[JoeJBP]

Will have a closer look at this later on. The cannon pinion is loose though, for example if I were to turn the movement over it would just fall off. 

[HorologicalHobby]

So this is the exact problem my as1906 had. It's not the canon pinion dial side, the great gear that transfers power has 2 gears, one is loose and needs to be tightened.

[JoeJBP]

I've been reading your post, and thanks Cad for pointing it out. I really didn't want to strip this down as the watch was ready to wear but it looks like I'm going to have to go for it.

How did you tighten the gear? And was the cannon pinion on yours very loose on the center pinion?

 

[HorologicalHobby]

It was very loose on the center pinion, that's how it's supposed to be. The issue is in the gear train.

So you take the gear out, the top gear will be very loose. That's the problem. I used a thin bladed screw driver, and stuck it between the two gears, gently rotated it, and I could see a gap form between the two. Stuck the screwdriver in there and gave it a slight twist and it popped right off, not hard at all. After, it looked like this:

I then cleaned it, as mine still had old grease accumulated inside of it.

Then I took the small gear on the right, and tightened the lip (on the underside of the gear on the right), like you would any canon pinion. Then I placed it back on the gear, and pushed it into place. I didn't lubricate mine, but you may want to.

After, it looked like this:

Once reassembled there was proper friction, and you could set it properly, and it kept time!

[JoeJBP]

Great description and pictures. Thank you! I will give it a go as soon as I can. Will let you know how I get on. 

Joe. 

[HorologicalHobby]

No problem! Glad to help, this was not an intuitive problem, I just happened to stumble on the solution first, like 2 weeks ago.

[JoeJBP]

So I have taken the train wheels out and this is what I have.

Sorry for the bad picture. On the right is the great wheel, similar to yours, then on the left is a pinion which clips onto the dial side and drives the minutes and hour wheel. It looks to be different to yours but I imagine that this pinion has become loose. 

Any thoughts?

 

[JoeJBP]

I managed to tighten it but only after spending two hours searching for it on the floor so will have to wait until next time to see if it works. I'm feeling optimistic. 

[JoeJBP]

On 23 May 2016 at 11:34 AM, ro63rto said:

 

Looks like an AS 1746

 

Theres one on ebay at the moment.

EDIT : Sorry, 1747 as yours has date.

I discovered that it is a 1746, it was printed under the balance. I also found this handy document

https://watchguy.co.uk/technical/AS/646_as1746.pdf

I fitted the driving wheel back after tightening the pinion which worked ok until the date changed and then I found that I couldn't wind the mainspring at all, it kept slipping. I discovered that as well as the loose pinion the driving wheel itself had become loose on its own pinion.

This one may require some spare parts to fix. 

Joe.

 

[mbwatch]

On 5/23/2016 at 3:29 PM, HorologicalHobby said:

Then I took the small gear on the right, and tightened the lip (on the underside of the gear on the right), like you would any canon pinion.

I have an AS 1914 that went together with zero drama and perfect performance, until the day clicked over and it loses 2 or 3 minutes. Hand setting is not the lightest I have felt but is light and I think I need to attempt to tighten that friction pinion. Cousins does not have the part and I hesitate to buy a used one from a donor, expecting it to have the same problem.

How. can I go about tightening that little tube? I have a wedge shaped stake but not the V shaped stump for cannon pinions. I suspect those would be too big for this anyway. Would a collet tightening tool work (don't have one but could get one)? Or even just a firm pinch over a sewing needle or smoothing broach?

 

Edit: On the other hand, since it is clearly the day and not the date changeover causing the slowdown, is it possible I could add lubrication to the day ring teeth or jumper spring to help this rather than disassemble most of the motion works again to get into the train?

Edited March 26, 2023 by mbwatch

[GuyMontag]

2 hours ago, mbwatch said:

I have an AS 1914 that went together with zero drama and perfect performance, until the day clicked over and it loses 2 or 3 minutes. Hand setting is not the lightest I have felt but is light and I think I need to attempt to tighten that friction pinion. Cousins does not have the part and I hesitate to buy a used one from a donor, expecting it to have the same problem.

How. can I go about tightening that little tube? I have a wedge shaped stake but not the V shaped stump for cannon pinions. I suspect those would be too big for this anyway. Would a collet tightening tool work (don't have one but could get one)? Or even just a firm pinch over a sewing needle or smoothing broach?

 

Edit: On the other hand, since it is clearly the day and not the date changeover causing the slowdown, is it possible I could add lubrication to the day ring teeth or jumper spring to help this rather than disassemble most of the motion works again to get into the train?

I just finished servicing an AS1916 with a loose friction pinion which I believe has the same large driving wheel with friction pinion as the 1914. I tried using my Bergeon 4733 to tighten the friction pinion but there wasn't enough of a "lip" to grip it. Same with my staking set V-shaped stump/wedge stake. I ended up just using a pair of nail clippers (with a smoothing broach inside the friction pinion) to gently squeeze the friction pinion. I couldn't get both jaws of the clippers on the correct part of the friction pinion, but it still worked perfectly.

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by GuyMontag

[mbwatch]

9 hours ago, GuyMontag said:

I ended up just using a pair of nail clippers (with a smoothing broach inside the friction pinion) to gently squeeze the friction pinion.

Ah a cheap fix, fantastic thank you.

[mbwatch]

I took apart my AS 1914 and examined the friction pinion - it actually seemed like it had sufficient tension already. I could turn it with tweezers, but felt a good amount of resistance. So I set about adding lubrication to the day jumper and reducing its tension slightly, wherein I broke the tip off the spring. So my original problem is solved; the day changeover no longer impedes the motion works but now the day ring is a little loose and not centered in the window. So off to replace that part.

On the bright side, it was a pleasant surprise that this movement didn't require me to disassemble the calendar works and motion works to remove the train of wheels. I guess that's a benefit of putting the friction into that wheel instead of the cannon pinion. I only had to take off the ratchet wheel and train bridge.