Junghans J 87 Movement November 1961

[AlexanderB]

Hi I recently purchased an old Junghans Movement with dial and hands. I did some internet research and it turned out that this movement is older than me!

K1 is stamped to the plate. 

K = 11th character = November, 1 stands for 1961 

The first thing I did was demagnetizing the watch. The watch was fully wound after I got it and did not run. But that was an easy one:

The hands are bent and block each other. After removing the hands, the movement started running immediately.

Then I checked the movement with my brand new Weishi 1900 Timegrapher. Not that my old No. 1000 didn't work. But I love the higher resolution. Not really necessary. 

The upper picture is taken face down and below that face up. 

I have two questions:

1) How do I straighten the hands without ruining them?

2) What does the irregularity in the blue line of the second graph tell me?

Thank you for your support! I will now start disassemble.

Cheers Alexander

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2016 by AlexanderB
typo

[szbalogh]

Measure it with the other timegrapher as well or try adjusting amplification and gain! Maybe low S/N for that tick. 

The lower line error showing some regularity. Maybe one escape wheel teeth is not like the others. Check also the lever pallets. 

[AlexanderB]

Thank you. What do you mean by "Maybe low S/N for that tick" S/N = Serial Number?

The old is already sold.

[AlexanderB]

Here we go with the disassembly:

Removal of Hour Wheel and Canon Pinion. Not too much to see but I love these close-ups

Balance Wheel looks good as far as I'm concerned:

After removal of the balance I removed the pallet bridge and pallet fork. Still assembled in the pics.

Closeup of the picture above.

Pallet Fork looks good to me.

BTW all parts are not cleaned yet.

 

[AlexanderB]

Next was the crown wheel and the barrel wheel. I almost killed the ratchet wheel screw!

My notion was that the crown wheel was attached with two regular screws to prevent having a left threaded screw. After I removed the crown wheel, I started to unscrew the ratchet wheel, but to no avail! I pressed harder and it did not move. Then Adrenalin pumped through my veins! It has to be a left threaded screw, occurred to me. So I tried "fasten" the screw and ... it started moving.

OK. Another experience.

BTW, this time I adjusted the screwdriver blade with a grinding stone to fit perfect. What a difference! The blade sits sound and safe in the screw head. No slipping away! Just perfect.

Some more pictures...

Click and Click spring. 

Barrel Bridge removed.

Train wheel bridge removed.

Yer another bridge for the intermediate wheel, right?

Here you can see that someone earlier tried to pry the bridge off with a screwdriver I guess. Indeed, the bridge was difficult to remove.

Here we go, almost done!

[AlexanderB]

After removing all parts from the bridge side, I turned the movement and removed the setting wheels first.#

Next the keyless work:

And finally the setting lever, stem and clutch wheel and winding pinion.

Finally I removed the Incabloc of the plate. Different system here: I turned the spring carefully with my tweezers, until one of the three legs faced the opening. removed the spring very carefully with the tweezers, not grabbing it but gently pushing it. I wonder if I can get it back in place!

[AlexanderB]

Done: 

 

Don't forget my two questions, please:

1) How do I straighten the hands without ruining them?

2) What does the irregularity in the blue line of the second graph tell me?

Cheers Alexander

[jdm]

26 minutes ago, AlexanderB said:

1) How do I straighten the hands without ruining them?

2) What does the irregularity in the blue line of the second graph tell me?

To straighten hands use soft objects, e.g. the stick from a q-tip on the mat. 

The minor irregularities tell you that you have to service the movement, put it back together, regulate and check it before even thinking about that.

Edited May 15, 2016 by jdm

[AlexanderB]

Thanks a lot @jdm!

[jdm]

NP. Very good work and pictures!

[AlexanderB]

Thank you jdm. After I had worked on the ETA 2551 and ETA 2369, this one looks huuuuge to me! What I love about this Junghans movement is, that all the bridge screws are identical. What a relief! Tomorrow I will clean the parts and assemble it again.

I wonder if I will work on the beat error because this one has a fixed hairspring stud. I assume I need to loosen the screw, push or pull the hairspring a bit and fasten the screw again. I wonder if I am able to do this. Let's see.

[jdm]

8 minutes ago, AlexanderB said:

I wonder if I will work on the beat error because this one has a fixed hairspring stud. I assume I need to loosen the screw, push or pull the hairspring a bit and fasten the screw again. 

I think the screw only holds the stud in place. BE adjustment may need to be done rotating the HS on the balance staff. But i wouldn't go crazy about that, rather I'd start looking for a suitable case. It will need a well domed crystal for sure. Let us know how you go. 

[AlexanderB]

Just had a close look at it. Of course, you're right. And I won't touch it. Just too dangerous. 

Finding a suitable case will be a challenge I assume. But this is the very last step anyway.

[jdm]

Yeah, that's surely safer. I find interesting that in this balance the final arc of the HS is shaped without a dogleg. In the recent past member 275R was great at finding references to explain this kind of stuff, but we aren't hearing from him since a while.

[clockboy]

1) How do I straighten the hands without ruining them?

Answer: I would gently re-shape by hand

2) What does the irregularity in the blue line of the second graph tell me?

Answer: one side of the escape action is not correct now & again. Normally after a clean & lubrications this goes.

 

[oldhippy]

The first thing I did was demagnetizing the watch.

Well done in doing that I can't stress how important that is it can save a lot of time and problems and it can even look after your tools. This is good and clear for all to see on how to go about taking this cal movement apart, fine photos and detail to. Well done.

[szbalogh]

15 hours ago, AlexanderB said:

Thank you. What do you mean by "Maybe low S/N for that tick" S/N = Serial Number?

The old is already sold.

Signal to noise ratio

[AlexanderB]

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

 

The first thing I did was demagnetizing the watch.

Well done in doing that I can't stress how important that is it can save a lot of time and problems and it can even look after your tools. This is good and clear for all to see on how to go about taking this cal movement apart, fine photos and detail to. Well done.

 

Thank you for your kind comment. Actually, the importance of demagnetizing the movement first is something I took from this forum, maybe even from one of your posts, @oldhippy! 

From what I also get from your words is, that it makes sense that I take the time to post these walk through's. 

[AlexanderB]

21 minutes ago, szbalogh said:

Signal to noise ratio

OK, thanks. With this timegrapher I can set the gain. But I assume that it is not a problem of the microphone but with the escapement. Let's see how the movement behaves after cleaning and reassembly.

[szbalogh]

Just now, AlexanderB said:

OK, thanks. With this timegrapher I can set the gain. But I assume that it is not a problem of the microphone but with the escapement. Let's see how the movement behaves after cleaning and reassembly.

As Clockboy said, it will surely removed by cleaning.

[Lawson]

Hey AlexanderB

Excellent write up mate, and the pictures are wonderfully clear.
I'm very interested in seeing more on the system holding the end-stones of the Balance ... they look very "old school" indeed.

Keep up the great work and writes mate!!

 

[AlexanderB]

This time I want to present a couple of pictures on my cleaning. Since I don't have a watch cleaning machine I use a semi professional ultrasonic cleaner.

It has a heater and I usually set 50°C. I use an Elma 1:9 cleaning solution and set 3 minutes. That turned out to be sufficient.

I clean all parts in the ultrasonic besides

• Balance / Hairspring / cock assembly. I just dip it entirely for a couple of seconds in Bergeon 2552 One Dip Solution
• Incabloc stones.
• Barrel wheel with main spring. 

Everything else I put in little baskets (I have a couple of them), put the baskets in the basket of the US cleaner and let it run.

After the US cleaning is done, I wash it in clear water from the tap.

Next step: I take the parts from the baskets and dip them in benzine (I wonder if this is the right word).

I use a blower to remove excess benzine, like you can see in the picture below (before blowing).

I know: I learned not to grab the wheels like this to prevent scratches! It was just for the photo, I promise

As someone mentioned earlier in another thread, removing the parts from the baskets has be done most careful and thorough. I cleaned a movement earlier in my "career", and was not able to assemble it within a week or so. I wanted to fix the click and ... the screw was gone! I eventually found it in one of the baskets, stuck to the rim and ... totally rusted. Totally destroyed.

So watch out for springs, screws etc. in the baskets. You better look twice.

The screws were not placed there. This is an actual situation. BTW, someone recommended not to clean the screws. Especially for the old movements I am working on right now I consider this mandatory.

After taking the parts from the benzine, I place them on a special drying paper. 

This is my setup for cleaning:

Important: This is how I do it. This must not necessarily be the way how "it is done". I'd like to hear your tips and criticism on that (can take it  ). No hints, criticism or confirmation, whatever comes to your mind - no more pictures. 

Looking forward to your opinions on that.

Cheers Alexander

Edited May 16, 2016 by AlexanderB

[AlexanderB]

The first assembly step is mounting the Incabloc to the plate. I cleaned the pieces in benzine, put a drop of 9010 to the cap stone, as I did earlier (see my 2551 thread) and dropped the two parts in the plate.

@Lawson asked about the mounting of the endstone so I took a couple of pictures to make it clear. There is a slot in the walls of the hole (I wouldn't even know how to describe that in German!). But I think the picture shows it quite well. You can also see the notch at 11 o'clock on the pic. This is where you can lower the three legged spring, one by one leg.

1. First: put the Incabloc in the hole.
2. Slide in one leg of the spring in the slot and make sure, another leg points to the groove.
3. Use your tweezers to carefully push the second leg in the slot. You have to be extremely careful and work really slow. Push alternating the two legs by fractions of a millimeter...
4. ...until the third leg points to the grove. Once more push the third leg carefully under the slot. Now you have to carefully push all three legs one by one until each leg is safe and secure away from the opening.

This is how it's supposed to look like:

It was easier than expected.

I am still interested in comments on my cleaning procedure!

Edited May 16, 2016 by AlexanderB

[bobm12]

Hi Alexander!

Excellent pictures and man, you are a pro both in the photography angle and the way you are doing this watch! Very good job indeed. You ask: "What does the irregularity in the blue line of the second graph tell me?" to me, the fact that the bridge is a little bent on that side appears to have disturbed the end shake/adjustment of the movement/wheel. This might reflect on the "noise" generated for the timegrapher to read. It appears not to be very serious -- although not good enough since it might be impacting the accuracy, error bit and probably amplitude. As clockboy said, check the scape wheel but in my mind it is a reflection of the above problem on the said wheel (not that there is anything wrong with the wheel itself...I don't know if I'm explaining it right). Of course, this is my take on it and again, I would definitely check how the wheels mesh during movement (remember the bent bridge). Double check after a good cleaning and lube.

Regretfully, I don't have a solution for a bent bridge and in the end you will have to maybe shim it or live with it as is, short of whack it to make it "flat" again (not recommended although doable). As for the hands, I usually straighten them with either my fingers or the back of the tweezers but it depends on how far gone they are. In the end I clean them with rodico (since I touched them). I've found that -- for some hands anyway -- the thickness of my bergeon mat give a fair height to "support" the tube of the hands so I can have half the hand on the mat to straighten and then turn it 180 degrees to straighten the other half while keeping the tube against the edge of the mat and supported by the actual bench at the bottom, flat (always working against the mat using the back of the tweezers or similar depending). Even the flat round "pusher" of the hand setting tool might be of use in some cases where you want to focus on a distorted spot. You will need another tweezers or something to hold the hand steady and in place for this operation. Never do a "rubbing" movement with the tweezers since they will scratch the finish of the hands....but you can do so with your fingers. All this "explanation" doesn't really apply when you work with the hands tube "up" and needless to say, lume is very frail and care must be taken not to damage it.

Maybe I'm breaking the rules in the watchmaking world but so far it has worked for me. Always try to protect the hand's tube and most important their point where they rivet together. When those bend they are almost impossible to fix with normal, everyday tools. IMHO.

Cheers,

Bob

[Cad101]

I'm always amazed how the make something so technically perfect and beautiful so small look at that incabloc spring its perfect