ETA 2369 Repair

[AlexanderB]

Hi,

As I said I need more practice and I found an ETA 2369 in my collection of potential patients that is not running.

This is what I found, before I took off the hands and dial (sorry, no photo of that state):

• The keyless work is strangely not functioning. I can pull the crown, it does "click" but it's stuck in setting mode (like if the crown was pulled)
• If I wind it by using the screw of the ratchet wheel it does not start ticking.

The first thing I did was:

• Demagnetize
• Remove the hands and dial
• Take pictures of the movement from both sides

I will continue in a fast pace now since I already disassembled everything and present the pictures now.

Cheers Alexander

 

[AlexanderB]

Then I removed the automatic assembly:

Turned the movement (should have removed the balance wheel BTW), and removed the canon pinion.

Next step: take away the date ring and parts. Nothing special to mention, pretty straight forward.

Now it became evident where at least one of my two problems lie: severe rust in the keyless work.

 

[AlexanderB]

Then I went on removing the balance, pallet fork, click spring, crown wheel, ratchet wheel, barrel bridge, barrel, wheel train.

 

[AlexanderB]

Then I turned the movement again and disassembled the rest.

The yoke was blocked by rust. But I was able to remove it pretty easy, pressing with a pin from the other side.

[AlexanderB]

Done for now. Tomorrow I will clean the parts!

Cheers Alexander

[Cad101]

Rust arrrrgghhh its been the death of many a good setting lever spring and yoke but with patience it can be cleaned away and polished back to some degree. Are you trying the strong tea method. 

Mick

[AlexanderB]

Thank you Mick. I cleaned the parts but to no avail. The rust has bitten already in the material. They are beyond remedy. Luckily there was another 2369 in the box that already fell apart and these to damaged parts are in excellent condition. The plate was also easy to clean and it should be possible to bring this movement back to live. BTW I like that movement much more than its predecessor the 2551. Easier to work on.

Tomorrow more.

Cheers Alexander

[AlexanderB]

I have a question: I heard that it is not a good idea to clean the automatic assembly in ultrasonic.

I am talking about the part on the left. Can anyone please comment on that, or share his or her experiences?

Thank you!

Cheers Alexander

[AlexanderB]

Today I cleaned the remaining parts and started assembly.

First was the keyless work.

As I mentioned earlier, I found a replacement for the rusted two rusted parts, the yoke and the setting lever spring. Works like a charm now.

Then I fitted the incabloc. This one comes with an extra holder. From what I saw this was done to the 1960's. Later the incabloc was mounted directly in the spring. I assume that it was not possible in the early days to fix the incabloc spring directly in the plate. But this is only a guess.

Oiling the cap stone worked like a charm this time. The videos about oiling that were shared in my 2551 thread helped me a lot in the entire process of lubricating this movement.

In the picture above you can see the incabloc assembly fitted to the plate.

[AlexanderB]

Next was the train wheel and the train wheel bridge. What really challenged me was the tiny pivot hole for the intermediate wheel (see red circle). Since the intermediate wheel is standing high on it's axle it tends to tilt and then slip out of the hole. It took me a couple of attempts to get it done.

But eventually the train wheel bridge was screwed tight and the train wheel is running very smooth.

Next was the barrel wheel and the barrel bridge where I needed to temporarily fix the crown wheel rocker in order to mount it. BTW the terms I use where were borrowed from the ETA 2551 manual. It would never come to my mind to call a part "crown wheel rocker" .

I lubricated everything and the train wheel is running very well. Unlike the 2551 I serviced earlier it comes to a stop without a tendency to start again. My prediction: I won't see a wavy line on the timegrapher.

The last parts for today were the ratchet wheel, the crown wheel and the click as you can see pretty clear on the picture.

After losing one click spring and failed to insert a spare click spring after the 10th attempt, I call it a day now. Lost almost the spare spring and move on to this tomorrow.

May I ask you about your opinions regarding cleaning the automatic assembly in the ultrasonic (see two posts earlier)?

Thanks and Cheers

Alexander

 

 

[jeffc83]

I'm probably not the best person to advise of what not to put in the ultrasonic cleaner but I have cleaned several automatic assemblies that way and have had no issues at all.  Could it have been a problem?  Maybe but I don't see why...

Awesome project BTW, I'm glued to it now;)  I love watching/reading how others take approach to this!!!

Edited May 5, 2016 by jeffc83

[AlexanderB]

Thank you Jeff. Let's see if others come up with some more. I heard that the jewels that are sort of built in the wheels are lubricated in a special way and this obviously gets lost during cleaning. But I might as well be wrong.

Cheers Alexander

[jeffc83]

I have heard of this problem before as well but I didn't take it seriously at the time...hope someone else chimes in soon, would be nice to confirm if A, you can do this without concern and B, if I was just getting lucky in the past;)  There are so many techniques that work, it's sometimes difficult to find the most proper method.

[Marc]

In respect to cleaning the autowind module Alexander is sort of right...

The problem is not in the cleaning but in the re-lubricating, specifically of the reverser wheel pawls. ETA standard advice is to replace the reverser wheels rather than to service them. That way the issues with lubrication go away all together. The problem is getting the tiniest amount of oil in exactly the right place, and if you over do it they just glue up all together.

There are ways and means though, and I have as yet had to replace any reverser wheels. The standard work around is to clean the reverser wheel as normal and to mix up moebius 9010 1:10 with naphtha. simply immerse the wheels in the diluted oil and then let them air dry. The naphtha evaporates leaving the thinnest film of 9010 on the wheels. This is what I do and I have no problems.

A (possibly) better solution is to use a specially developed lubricant called Lubeta V105 which was devised especially for ETA reverser wheels. You use it exactly the same way as the diluted 9010 and it leaves a thin waxy film over the reverser. I have not used this myself but it does seem to have had good reports from those who have, which it should as it was developed just for this job. Interestingly I have read about it gluing up reverser wheels in movements other than ETA.

Then as I said, the standard ETA service procedure is to just replace the reversers and avoid any risk of having to go back in to have another go.

What would I be doing in your shoes? I would strip the autowind module down, put everything through the cleaner, dunk the reversers in diluted 9010, then reassemble and relubricate in the normal way.

Best of luck 

[AlexanderB]

Marc,

wow, this is an excellent explanation. Thank you for taking the time.

The consequences for me are.

• I don't clean the reverser wheels on movements I use for practice only. In the case of the 2369 and 2551 the autowind module cannot be disassembled from what I saw. It seems to be riveted.
• If I come service a watch that will be worn after service I will try to get replacement reverser wheels. If they are not available I try to use a solution as you suggested.

Again, thanks a lot. That really brought light into the dark!

Cheers Alexander

[AlexanderB]

The movement is running again!

Yesterday evening, before I went to bed, I tried once more to install the click spring. This time it worked. What I tried was to keep one end in place with a bit of Rodico. It took me another several attempts, but eventually the spring was in place.

What was left of the bridge sind were the pallet fork + bridge and the balance wheel + cock.

After fitting the pallet fork, I lubricated it according to what I learned is the "swiss method", i.e. putting a drop of oil on the outgoing pallet, clicking five times, then again and once more.

Then I fitted the balance wheel.

Problems with the balance wheel observed (advice highly appreciated)

This time I had severe problems and I was very close to destroying the hairspring when I slipped and one part of the hairspring coiled over the cock. Was lucky to get that sorted out.

Another problem was that I obviously did not install the balance wheel properly: the balance hit the pallet fork and stopped. The roller jewel apparently wasn't properly fit.

Is there a comprehensive description of how to insert the balance in the movement properly?

Cheers and Thanks

Alexander

[Geo]

2 hours ago, AlexanderB said:

 

Is there a comprehensive description of how to insert the balance in the movement properly?

Cheers and Thanks

Alexander

 

Here's what I said in an earlier post on the subject:-

"This is the bit that gave me the most heartache when I started. 

Wind the watch 1-2 turns and check that the escapement levers flicks sharply from side to side by gently pushing it with a dry oiler or tooth pick.

If all is well, fit the balance wheel. Make sure that you position the balance jewel correctly regarding the end of the lever. Looking down on the lever, if it lying to the right, ensure that the balance jewel is even further to the right when you drop the balance into position. Vice versa if the lever is lying to the left. As you turn the balance cock into the correct position the balance jewel will automatically engage the lever and watch should start running.

As a wee aside, when oiling a watch, do not oil the pivot jewels on the escapement lever."

[AlexanderB]

Thanks Geo. This certainly helps a lot!

I just finished this one. Some more pictures but pretty uneventful. I did some regulation but I wasn't able to get the beat error below 2ms. I assume I did harm the hairspring a bit. But that's just fine. This is all about experience.

 

My conclusion: a movement that wasn't working anymore is not working again. I consider this another success.

The dial was in this condition when I got it btw. Also I don't have a case for this movement.

I also learned something about reverser wheels and lubrication as well as working with the balance wheel. Thanks for contributing.

Cheers Alexander

[AlexanderB]

There is more to learn from this movement!

 

After 2h I looked at the movement again to see how it is doing. It actually stopped, which means the job is not done yet.

My first thought was that the dial and hands were somewhat blocking. This movement was in a very bad condition regarding the dial and hands. After removing those, it still stopped working after a while.

My second thought was that the mainspring was damaged. It didn't feel like that, because when I unwound it, there was still a significant amount of power. But since I'm not too experienced and there was this other already cannibalized movement available, I took another complete barrel wheel and installed it.

I was a bit anxious that I might have to re-install the click spring again, which took me an hour last time. But luckily the crown wheel and click remain on the barrel bridge. Very well designed! BTW next time I will attach the crown wheel to the barrel bridge before mounting the barrel bridge on a movement like this.

The result was almost as expected. After a couple of minutes it stopped again.

I remembered that it was running pretty well before I added the date mechanism. So I took away the date indicator and the date indicator guard. The movement is now running flawless for a couple of hours. I kept the all the wheels in place, including the hour wheel, setting wheel and date driving wheel in place (not to change too much at a time).

Any ideas?

Cheers Alexander

[AlexanderB]

Short Update: I must have jammed something with the date mechanism. After removing it, and assembling it again the movement ran for more than 24h.

I consider this a success.

Cheers Alexander

[bobm12]

Excellent job Alexander! I haven't been around too much and "missed" part of the fun but I'm back! Very well done!

Cheers,

Bob