Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Has anybody tried to interface one of these Chinese timegraphers with a PC?  I can see value in the ability to record data.  I don't think there's need to control the machine from a PC, though.  Thoughts and opinions?  Links?

Woody

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 218
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

There are differences beyond the display size of why someone would pay roughly $3000 versus 225 for a 1900. But for most hobbyists you're never going to notice the difference. I have actually done sid

The 1900 give you the option to manually select the beat. This can be very useful. The 1000 is very limited in this respect. Having said that, the 1000 is excellent for majority of watches you would w

When you finally purchase you watch timing machine you might find the following vid interesting. How to determine what the watch you are working on lift angle is using a timing machine.  

Posted Images

43 minutes ago, B42Woody said:

Has anybody tried to interface one of these Chinese timegraphers with a PC?  I can see value in the ability to record data.  I don't think there's need to control the machine from a PC, though.  Thoughts and opinions?  Links?

The Chinese machine cannot be connected to a computer, even the more expensive models (not even covered in this topic), only support connection to a printer. If you are interested in using a PC there are varisou application available but you will have to provide yourown microphone.

BTW, we have a dedicated section on this forum where is considered polite for new members to introduce themselves.

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, jdm said:

The Chinese machine cannot be connected to a computer, even the more expensive models (not even covered in this topic), only support connection to a printer. ....

Thanks for the reply, jdm.

I'm not asking about "connecting" one of these devices to a PC - I see the manufacturers don't offer that option.  Rather, I'm asking if anybody has opened the enclosure and interfaced with the electronics to grab data signals.  My colleague is a wiz with electronics but if somebody has already done it and is willing to share the details, that would be great.

Woody

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, B42Woody said:

I'm asking if anybody has opened the enclosure and interfaced with the electronics to grab data signals. 

Personally I think that data loggin is of small importance. beside being a regulation/adjustment help, a timegrapher has basically two functions, first a good / no good indication in different positions, and at different times during the expected power reserve. Scond, in case of "no good", it give some cues about what may be the cause.
Anyway, not even a schematics is available. I would be curious to know the answer you get once present the challenge to your talented friend.

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, B42Woody said:

Rather, I'm asking if anybody has opened the enclosure and interfaced with the electronics to grab data signals. 

You don't need the signals out of the timing machine you just need the microphone. Then somewhere in the discussion group we've already discussed that as there are software-based timing machines that can make use of that single.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, JohnR725 said:

You don't need the signals out of the timing machine you just need the microphone. Then somewhere in the discussion group we've already discussed that as there are software-based timing machines that can make use of that single.

Thanks, John.  That makes a lot more sense ....

Woody

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, B42Woody said:

That makes a lot more sense ....

Which is what I also wrote above:

If you are interested in using a PC there are various applications available but you will have to provide your own microphone.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi  If you are interestend in PC based timing systems There are a few, Delph electronics do some software, There is tg software and Watch-o-scope which I have used  and find very good giving plenty of information, The only snag is you have to build the michrophone and pick up.  Details are provided along with instructions on the operation of the software. there is a lite version to test if you like it, buying the one off licence opens more features last count licence was $40.

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

The only snag is you have to build the michrophone and pick up.

If going for a quality tool the practicality of a ready, articulated, amplified microphone is a must. It can be bought for a little less than the price of a model 1000, and the below details the building on an adapter cable to a PC.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...
On 2/27/2020 at 10:12 AM, B42Woody said:

Thanks for the reply, jdm.

I'm not asking about "connecting" one of these devices to a PC - I see the manufacturers don't offer that option.  Rather, I'm asking if anybody has opened the enclosure and interfaced with the electronics to grab data signals.  My colleague is a wiz with electronics but if somebody has already done it and is willing to share the details, that would be great.

Woody

It seems like it might be worth tapping off the microphone input for a daughter board to output the actual audio rather than the beep... Depending on how they're dealing with the microphone's signal in the first place, the daughter board might not even be necessary... Just noodling. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, spectre6000 said:

It seems like it might be worth tapping off the microphone input for a daughter board to output the actual audio rather than the beep... Depending on how they're dealing with the microphone's signal in the first place, the daughter board might not even be necessary

I'm attaching a photograph of the inside of the Chinese 1000 machine. What you would have to do is get an on oscilloscope look around for the signal and probably just a little audio amplifier with volume adjustment. It's another one of those projects I thought about doing some day if I had more free time.

Then I remember seeing on a discussion group or someone took one of the other Chinese machines apart and I thought they did something with the oscilloscope. So doing a search stumble across the first link at the same discussion group and the second plank of the other machine. I thought there was a little more our oscilloscope use.

Then the other machine is made by somebody else in China. Not as desirable to have because it has limited ranges. The 1000 and the 1900 they paid attention to what witschi as far as the frequencies and ranges and sort of copy that. Versus the other company that came first it had much more limited ranges.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/weishi-no-1900-multifunction-timegrapher-teardown/

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/weishi-mtg-3000-_multi-function-timegrapher_/msg124772/#msg124772

Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a preamp in the microphone itself. Depending on what it does once it gets to the primary board (none of the photos are high enough resolution or at the right angles to really see what's going on), it may be possible to tap directly off that right at the plug and pull the speaker out to just play what's coming from the microphone (assuming it's not doing some other critical thing). It's all conjecture without having one in hand, but that'll come soon enough.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 4 weeks later...

Just a heads up. I ordered one of these watch timers from China via ebay, but it never arrived. The seller kept me waiting almost 2 months then I opened a case a couple of days within the timeframe to complain, and got an immediate refund from ebay. It looks like a reputable seller suddenly went rogue after 30K+ valid sales. The seller offered to post it again, but that was a stall tactic to get me out of the time period. This happens a lot apparently. In case anyone else is waiting for one, forget the warnings that COV-19 might delay your products. If you don't respond within the timeframe, shortly after expected delivery date ebay/paypal won't refund. I would have gone to a UK seller who has them in stock, but I wanted delivery abroad, and there are import implications, etc.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a quick question. Maybe you will be able to tell me if my device is faulty or is it normal.
I bought 1900model and tried it on my watches. Very strange results. Basically there is zero consistency between my tests.
Watch is mounted, i am not touching it. I have let say results of +10sec and 280 amp. I run test for let say 5 minutes and it results areroughly the same. I pause device and start it again. Now it is +7 sec and 290 amp. OFF->ON - and now i can see +15sec and 260 amp. Everything else is the same, watch is in same position, all settings are same, gain on mic is same, room is quiet. Done this test literally 100 times on 7 different watches and machine behave still the same - I can't replicate results.
I just wonder if I have faulty device and I should replace this one, or "you get what you pay for" and another one will act the same ?


 

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, quitquitquit said:

Just a quick question

not a quick question a confusing question?  Plus it would've been nice to give us a picture  just so we can see that it looks right..

7 hours ago, quitquitquit said:

Everything else is the same

then everything is not the same because this is a mechanical watch. The problem with mechanical watches are fluctuations in power through the gear train that causes fluctuations in timekeeping and amplitude. just the mechanical properties of gears cause power fluctuations and if the watch hasn't been serviced that's going to add to the problem. Like a sticky mainspring causes a slow fluctuation power over a long period of time.

The timing machine tends to be an instantaneous device. It's running internal calculations and averaging off of the waveform. so each time you start and stop the timing the internal averaging has to start over again and it's not averaging over the exact same part of the waveform.

then it would help to have a proper procedure for timing. if you look at the tech sheets for watches related to timing their recommendation is wind the watch up weight anywhere from 10 to 60 minutes then you can start timing. Also change the sampling time the machine defaults to two seconds change that to 20 seconds. That should average out the readings a little more smoothly. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/15/2020 at 12:56 PM, Vacherin said:

Just a heads up. I ordered one of these watch timers from China via ebay, but it never arrived. The seller kept me waiting almost 2 months then I opened a case a couple of days within the timeframe to complain, and got an immediate refund from ebay. It looks like a reputable seller suddenly went rogue after 30K+ valid sales. The seller offered to post it again, but that was a stall tactic to get me out of the time period. This happens a lot apparently. In case anyone else is waiting for one, forget the warnings that COV-19 might delay your products. If you don't respond within the timeframe, shortly after expected delivery date ebay/paypal won't refund. I would have gone to a UK seller who has them in stock, but I wanted delivery abroad, and there are import implications, etc.

I just ordered one from eBay last night. What seller? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/22/2020 at 6:01 AM, quitquitquit said:

Just a quick question. Maybe you will be able to tell me if my device is faulty or is it normal.
I bought 1900model and tried it on my watches. Very strange results. Basically there is zero consistency between my tests.
Watch is mounted, i am not touching it. I have let say results of +10sec and 280 amp. I run test for let say 5 minutes and it results areroughly the same. I pause device and start it again. Now it is +7 sec and 290 amp. OFF->ON - and now i can see +15sec and 260 amp. Everything else is the same, watch is in same position, all settings are same, gain on mic is same, room is quiet. Done this test literally 100 times on 7 different watches and machine behave still the same - I can't replicate results.
I just wonder if I have faulty device and I should replace this one, or "you get what you pay for" and another one will act the same ?
 

What if you take the watch off, restart, then remount? There may be a calibration routine running on start that's not obvious, and having a watch mounted isn't controlled for. I can easily imagine they cheaped out on the mic, stand, preamp, etc. such that it's noisy and there's some code running on start to compensate for that. A few lines of code is usually cheaper than a thousand upgraded components.

Edited by spectre6000
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

What if you take the watch off, restart, then remount? There may be a calibration routine running on start that's not obvious, and having a watch mounted isn't controlled for.

taking it on and off would add a new variation of having to wait at least 30 seconds for the watch to stabilize otherwise that's going to introduce a variation. the timing machine has a start/stop button. Each time the button is pushed it cycles between stopping which is freezing the display then starting a timing cycle starts over from the very beginning no need to remove the watch.

10 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

I can easily imagine they cheaped out on the mic, stand, preamp, etc. such that it's noisy and there's some code running on start to compensate for that. A few lines of code is usually cheaper than a thousand upgraded components.

that's an interesting observation which implies we would have to compare it to something? when the Chinese 1000 machines came out one of their selling points was the screen there were very proud of their backlit screen. At that time there comparisons were with the witschi watch expert II as it does not have a backlit screen. if we use their comparison then you're right the Swiss machine does have a nicer microphone considerably more more analog processing circuitry enhanced features plus a minor price difference.  okay perhaps it's not a minor price difference comparing a professional Swiss machine that  is just under $3000 to a Chinese machine that's under $200 is an interesting comparison isn't it?

then how does the Chinese  timing machines compared to the Swiss? I've already done that experiment couple years ago. I compared the witschi watch expert 2 with the Chinese 1000 and 1900.. for the most part they are very very close so close that I have no problems recommending either Chinese machine.. although I like the display better on the 1900 machine..

being curious about the start and stop problem I decided to try an experiment.. The benefit of collecting timing machines..  The witschi watch expert two  and the Chinese 1000 machine.. Basically the 1000 analog and programming for the most part is identical to the 1900 at least close enough. The watch that I was timing is a Hamilton 992B pocket watch. Mainly because it was convenient and it's a lot easier to have two microphones attached to a pocket watch..

basically the exact same set up I had before just a different watch. but there seems be a problem with the 1000 machine not correct technical term but it's not happy?  The LED is flickering  but not in nice rhythmic way.  the machine is having a problem figuring out  the beats per hour it's just taking a long time. Once it figured out the beats per hour the rate was fine but the amplitude took almost a minute and was wrong.. basically the machine is not getting a good clean signal?

this is a  problem more common with wristwatches in their case.. A lot of times of the case is big heavy cases sometimes the movement is plastic a variety of things can cause the signal not to get out.. This is where the recommendation is rotate the watch until the crown  is pressing against the part of the microphone where the sensor is located.. This should give you the best signal.. repositioning the pocket watch and the microphone the LEDs looking better everything is looking nice now. The witschi microphone is now clip to the side of the watch case it is working just fine. So there appears to be some minor signal problem with the pocket watch that the 1000 as having issues with the witschi is not. This is where in our oscilloscope feature is really nice missing from both of these machines.

now that both machines are simultaneously appearing to work let's look at the numbers and see the difference between them. The witschi indicates +2 seconds 226° 0.5 ms. The Chinese 1000 is +1 225° 0.5 ms so other than the initial microphone issue which I still think it's odd both machines are basically tracking very very close to each other.

I do curiosity I thought I would do a test where did I turn the machine off turn it back on and it's roughly 25 seconds to reestablish all the numbers then looking at the witschi machine it looks like everything is real close the amplitude is off by 5°. Some of this I think is because on power up it defaults to an averaging where sample time of four seconds and that's going to change things a little bit.

now for the final insanity part? Were not exactly comparing the same thing in that the witschi is averaging over 20 seconds updating every two seconds. Watching the display I noticing a amplitude variation anywhere between 229 up to 240 something this is a very slow variation over several minutes and it's not exactly rhythmic or consistent. as a guess this is what happens when you have several variations in issues seeing as how I know the watch hasn't been serviced in a while.

So with the Chinese machine I push the stop button right the numbers down the rates are very very consistent the same as the witschi machine so I'm going to ignore the rate for this test only look at the amplitude because that's the only thing that's showing any variation. So what I push the stop button I write down the number wait a moment push the start button once stabilizes right that number down this is why made a reference to insanity. Of and as a reminder the 1000 machine is set default sample time before seconds and we have no idea how the machine actually averages it would definitely be more stable if I would adjusted 20 seconds but the person who originally posted this never change the setting so I'll keep it where the machine would be for him.

So stopped 237° it starts up at 225° compared to the witschi at 237°. Then running the test again 225° starts up at 236 and the witschi's 237.

so the basic conclusion of all of this is the Chinese machines are relatively stable the microphone isn't quite as nice as the witschi the amplifier and so forth aren't quite as nice but it still doesn't really impressive job. For the original person posting we need more information? Like if you stare at the timing machine do the numbers change at all over several minutes? Are you seeing a slow variation. Because if there is a variation and you stop and start the machine up you going to see that where you had a number and it's going to jump to the variation number. If the graphical display is not a nice smooth line like mine is you're going to see a variation in the rate. Then if you change the sampling time to 20 seconds it will help to smooth things out.

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, spectre6000 said:

Are you saying the Witschi and the Weishi are producing similarly variable results like Vacherin said he was seeing, but the Weishi might be slightly worse?

I'm not sure if the phrase slightly worse is appropriate. Several years ago when I was in a teaching situation of teaching hobbyists watch repair. One of the students loaned me his small collection of pocket watches and his Chinese 1000 machine because he was concerned about the results he was seeing.  this made for a really nice lecture with pictures. Then much later on one of the other students loan me his 1900 machine to do a comparison with.

now of course I acquired a 1000 machine on eBay used for hundred dollars. You can never have enough timing machines.

before we continue I turned both timing machines back on then I was doing something with the witschi you can't do with the Chinese listening to the ticking sound as I was still bothered by the issue of yesterday. Then I wrote down the numbers. Witschi thinks the watch is +3 seconds fast 222° 0.5 ms beat the 1000 machine thinks the watch is +3 seconds fast 226° and 0.5 ms beat.

I'm not sure if it's going to answer your question or not but I have a link to the second page of this discussion it will probably give you some answers and bring up new questions

then when you make comparisons between the differing machines other issues can come. Like what's the consequence of having a small graphical display like the 1000's? Or the Chinese machines typically do not display error messages they will always try to give numbers what's the consequence of that?

The problem with a small graphical display is and we've done experiments on this group somebody had a watch that was perfectly in beat graphically but numerically the number did not agree? This is where on in a timing machine if the numbers do not agree with graphical results you have a problem. so what happened is the watches perfectly and beat graphically but numerically it was a huge number? This is because on the small display when you reach the edge to display it basically rolls over to the top and then you start getting goofy results. See you might have a watch that looks perfect but it's really not.

Then my reference to always giving numbers? I have a saying which is garbage in garbage out relating to timing machines. If the graphical display seems to be random dots and you have nice numbers the numbers are wrong. this is one of the reasons I always ask for pictures of graphical displays because you can see things there that you can't see numerically.

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/4124-chinese-timegraphers/page/2/

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/22/2020 at 2:01 PM, quitquitquit said:

 Done this test literally 100 times on 7 different watches and machine behave still the same - I can't replicate results.

I have a 1900 and works very reliably. As mentioned above if your watches have big thick cases you should try adjusting gain or remove the caseback.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Seeing as how I left the watch on the timing machine and 48 hours later I noticed it was still running reminded me to do another comparison. I'm attaching pictures including one of how two timing machines can time one watch.

Chinese machines do a really good job for the most part. This is also where common sense of the user comes in and that it is important to look at the numbers making sure they agree with the graphical display and visually looking at the watch. Sometimes the numbers might look too good to be true which is why you need to look at the watch.

One of the places the timing machines struggle and not just the Chinese is with amplitude. This is because the machine needs to measure two parts of the waveform correctly. As the amplitude decreases to basically the bottom of where the Chinese machine can measure you will see incorrect numbers. But if your visually paying attention to your watch it's not a problem. So for instance the witschi watch expert two will measure to 70°. The Chinese 1000 and 1900 will measure to 100°. Images attached at 104° the Chinese 1000 is indicating are very happy outstanding 285°. Then dropping below its measuring range 84° now not quite as happy  232°.

Excluding that the amplitude is at the bottom a where the machine supposed to measure still it's doing a really good job for something that cost a fraction of what the witschi did.

 

wc-104a.JPG

wc-104b.JPG

wc-84b.JPG

wc-84a.JPG

wc-mics.JPG

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Similar Content

    • By deathkei
      Hello
      I measured my Omega Caliber 1120 through an timegrapher app. (Dial Up, full wind)
      I know the app is not very accurate.

      I checked about +100s/d difference and sharply tilted graph .
      The odd thing is that the bottom part of the graph is not printed every 100+- seconds.(red-colored circle)
      Is this a feature of the timegrapher, or does it indicate abnormal state of movement component?
       
      Thank you for the comments.
    • By FitOutPost
      Hi, my name is Ross. I am a rookie watch enthusiast and I am really puzzled here.
      Could someone explain to me what kind of a problem am I facing with my timegrapher?
      I do two sets of measurements with the same watch (1 day or 6 days apart) and receive vastly different results - to the point of being completely different from what I observe in real life. 
      For example, my timegrapher shows that my watch is running fast (or ahead of time), while in real life I observe that it runs 7 seconds per day behind. I even recorded a video about it so you could see it for yourself: https://youtu.be/mhGzf6aLMlY
      How should I interpret that? Am I doing anything wrong?

      Problem_with_Timegrapher_-_Knowledge_Sharing__16.mp4
    • By east3rn
      Hello. 
      I am working on a vtg. Citizen cal.7520 automatic movement.
      I have put the watch on the timegrapher 
      The graph looks OK but the beat error shows 9.9ms. I presumed that beat error should be around 1.0~2.0 given the shape of the graph.
      Is the beat error actually bad or the timegrapher is wrong??
      Thank you!
       

    • By Padd
      Hello Everyone,
      Padd here from the UK.
      It all started with a desire to fix a Submariner replica I bought off a lucky lucky man in Pisa, Italy while on a European tour.
      Next thing I know I'm investigating Submariner replicas and building my own, signed by me, using a Seagull ST2130 movement, adventure watch.
      Now I'm hooked, I took inspiration from Marks videos, now I'm happily starting to work on parts of the movement, and have recovered one or two movements where the stem came out, but wouldn't stay back in. I have built a few watches for friends and relations, but now I need to be able to service them when they come back to me.
      I also have a couple of movements that run really badly, so I will be practising on those over the winter weekends. Full repair/servicing kit IS my Christmas present.
      I really want to get one of those ST2130's, serviced and tweaked by me, doing a -------------------------- on my timegrapher. not a -.'-.'''--,'.'.' (and worse) that they do at the moment.
      I wont start to list my watch collection, but it runs from a Casio digital to a Rolex pocket watch with Seikos, Citizens, Omegas and home builds in the mix.
      Must do Mark's course, but I'm afraid I may have already learned 60+% of it already.

  • Recently Browsing

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Topics

  • Posts

    • You're welcome, always happy to assist the wayward to choose the right path! (American pickers currently showing on the Discovery channel).
    • Agreed on replacing the electrolytics.  From what I understand, that solves 90% of the preventative care issues.  There are no tubes in this, so that's not a concern.  Sometimes transistors go out, but those are generally easy to spot as they often short when they fail.
    • The beginning of a learning curve.  I'm just starting out and no doubt many will end up in the bin and a few tiny wheels in inaccessible places.  I still remember my Timex with a mixture of sadness and fondness.  Many decades later and I still prefer that style of watch - easy to read dial, not to big, not too small.  My current everyday watch is a quartz Lorus.  Had it for about 15 years now.
    • So, i received some distilled water today and cleaned a watch with it, and now the parts are all clean and shiny, no more whitish deposit. Im very happy with the result. These old Elma machines are really rock solid and do a pretty damn job, still after 50 years 🙂
×
×
  • Create New...