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Chinese Timegraphers

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Sorry to hear that...

I primarily use it on the open movement, not so much on closed up watches where the sensitivity of the mic can be an issue.

And I make sure to place the mic right over the pallet fork/escapement area where the sound is created. A bit fiddling with the sensitivity and filter usually gives me workable data for adjustment of rate, beat and amplitude.

I have been thinking of sourcing/building an alternative mic but never got that far. Would be interesting to hear if anyone out there made any such attempts for this app.




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A better mic would probably help. After your post I updated my ap but it didn’t seem to help a lot. I was working with the watch I had on- ‘76 9411 blue dial. 

Maybe it’s working but generally a watch that graphs like a shotgun blast doesn’t run well and this does. 

Maybe I’ll try a different watch tomorrow and see if it’s any better. 

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18 hours ago, Tudor said:

I guess if it's a matter of accuracy, the investment is worth it to me. But, although I see a calibration port, I have no idea how to actually calibrate it... (I see no calibration tools out there) With regards to cheap measurement tools, as long as I can confirm the accuracy/repeatability I'm good. If a $10 tool can be calibrated to do the job, I'm good. Conversely, if I can't rely on (or confirm) the "cheap" tool, I am not afraid to spend a bit. (I have about four billion dollars in Snap-On automotive tools spanning three generations).

Price difference is not necessarily visual. I've done side-by-side comparison of a watch expert 2 and the 1000 and 1900. Casually with most comparisons they do really quite well it is not necessarily the visual things that make the difference. Witschi is a real company in existence in Switzerland. Some of the Chinese machines have the name WeiShi on them strangely enough it's not mentioned where their addresses is in their book. So they come from China warranty issues technical questions not going get any of that.

In a professional machine you get everything spelled out additional functions greater ranges nicer microphone. These are expected to run every single day in a watch shop. There is better audio processing in a noisy environment the Chinese machines can have problems. Or the ability to listen to your watch versus the irritating beeping sound. Frequency mode  tells the beats per hour of the watch.

Problem watches what does the timing machines do with them? The Chinese less intelligence so usually attempt to show you something where witschi decides that it will save you from the grief and not show you anything. But change the setting of the machine to rate only the machine is no longer trying to calculate amplitude & beat from something it can't you will usually get a display. Occasionally have to go to frequency mode if the machine just can't figure out what the timing is. Then extremes that really aren't important like extreme low amplitude. Chinese machines have a habit of not reading the right part of the waveform  display something that looks really nice visual the watch does not look nice witschi will go down the 70° which is definitely not a desirable amplitude..

This doesn't necessarily mean witschi was perfect with everything they do. The early days the Chinese would compare to the watch expert 2. In particular the display and they were right display isn't the best. Looks great except it's shiny everything reflects off of it try to photograph it very difficult usually get reflections off of all sorts of stuff. Even talked to another watchmaker he had to put pith wood under the machine to tip it at the right angle so they could see the display and not get the overhead lights. But that is no longer a problem they're all backlit now.

So if you're a professional watchmaker you're probably going to have a witschi. Or if you have lots of money or perhaps a timing machine obsession then those things will influence you. But the Chinese timing machines have one feature extremely important for this group that is there affordable. So the cost of a timing machine is no longer an excuse as to why you don't have one.Then it's important to remember  there is not just for timing of the watch  there really nice diagnostic tool providing you grasp what they're showing.

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I’m looking at timegraphers on Amazon and I think they are the same, just different branding and price:

Weishi
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Weishi-Timegrapher-NO-1900-Machine-Multifunction/dp/B0178B9DYM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1531166881&sr=8-2&keywords=timegrapher+1900

Eco-Worthy
https://www.amazon.co.uk/ECO-WORTHY-No-1900-Multifunction-Timegrapher-Mechanical/dp/B076WS9PGX/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1531166881&sr=8-1&keywords=timegrapher+1900

My guess is they are made in the same factory and they are the same thing but you never know. I’m hoping some you might know.

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I’m looking at timegraphers on Amazon and I think they are the same, just different branding and price:

Weishi
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Weishi-Timegrapher-NO-1900-Machine-Multifunction/dp/B0178B9DYM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1531166881&sr=8-2&keywords=timegrapher+1900

Eco-Worthy
https://www.amazon.co.uk/ECO-WORTHY-No-1900-Multifunction-Timegrapher-Mechanical/dp/B076WS9PGX/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1531166881&sr=8-1&keywords=timegrapher+1900

My guess is they are made in the same factory and they are the same thing but you never know. I’m hoping some you might know.

I would say YES ... the only difference being the "weishi" brand printed on one of the items, just to mimic "witschi" brand.
If you fell to take your chance about import taxes on AliExpress you can get that item much cheaper here http://s.aliexpress.com/nYJjyqI7?fromSns=Copy to Clipboard

Envoyé de mon Moto G (5) Plus en utilisant Tapatalk

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On 9/13/2014 at 9:12 PM, Mark said:

The 1900 give you the option to manually select the beat. This can be very useful. The 1000 is very limited in this respect. Having said that, the 1000 is excellent for majority of watches you would work on, no good for co-axials but good for the most common beat ranges.

My 1900 does an excellent job, gives me a good low down on bal/esc cond. I could not live without it when servicing a watch.

 

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not sure if I'm interpreting your question correctly? So I've attached a couple of pictures showing the sensor found in the microphone. You have to disassemble the assembly to get to the sensor. Then if you want any more pictures of the inside of the 1000 let me i photographed everything when I had a part.

tgp2.JPG

tgp1.JPG

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So the sound is not picked up through the metal stop by contact with the watch.  My timegrapher's stop tends to scratch the watch so if I puts some tape or heat shrink on the metal stop it would not reduce the ability to measure the sounnd?

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

 

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timing machine pickups are interesting they pick up the vibration of the watch. While the sound is a vibration they have to make physical contact with whatever they're picking up. So you cannot insulate the metal part because it has to make physical contact with the watch. the vibration picked up at the top  is transmitted down to the sensor. So any form of insulation preventing the vibration getting to the metal part means the pickup doesn't get anything either. So if it's scratching because there's a sharp edge you can smooth that off.

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Ok I will file the sharp edges to smooth the stop/sound pick up post.

I've heard if many people putting tape or heat shrink tubing over the stop to prevent the scratching but this would affect the ability of the timegrapher hear the watch.

 

Thanks again.

 

Tom

 

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Putting tape on that metal piece which is sharp makes little to no difference to the pickup of the microphone. I do just that and get a good signal with no problems. I've tested it both ways on my 1900 and a bit of tape works a treat.

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Hi everyone, I have a Timegrapher 1900 and I could not live without it !. I think that it is an excellent bit of kit for the money. Years ago I had a Vibrograph and other things left to me and I disposed of the lot for almost nothing. I should have kept the spring winder tho. 

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On 9/14/2014 at 12:54 AM, haratua said:

The newer Timegrapher 1000 works on Co-axials as well as option to manually select the beat rate. My understanding is that the limitations of the older 1000 (as per Mark's comments) were not hardware limitations but rather software's. If you get a new Timegrapher 1000 today you should be able to use it on Co-axial as well as manually select the beat rate. For common beat rate, you could just set it to Auto (e.g. 12000, 14400, 18000, 19800, 21600, 25200, 28800, 36000, 43200). For not so common beat rate, you can select manual beat rate.
 
The following is a video of my Omega Co-Axial 3313 on newer Timegrapher 1000 (DD position, Lift Angle 38 degree, Beat rate set to Auto).

 

 

Very much agree with the above as I have the new Witchi 1000 which does indeed work with my co-axial Omega cal 8800.

 

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Looking also for a timegrapher...

What are your opinions about this one? ( Not cheap )

I think it's a good one, it's professional I know, but like I said before, you never know you want to make some money later with the watch business, so I like to buy from the start good materials.

 

Thanks!

 

https://www.beco-technic.com/geraete-maschinen/uhrenpruefgeraete-kontrollgeraete/geraete-zur-pruefung-von-uhren/zeitwaage-chrono-touch-inkl-mikrophone-mp12-fuer-mechanische-uhren.html

 

https://www.beco-technic.com/media/pdf/218935_en.pdf

Edited by Koen

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2 hours ago, Koen said:

Looking also for a timegrapher...

This thread is about Chinese (cheap) timegrapher, anyway how much it cost? 

Are you sure that as a beginner hobbyist you need a professional model? Beside the "pleasure" of owning expensive tools. 

Have you diagnosed ot regulated a watch before? Euro 200 or 2,000 instruments would work the same. 

 

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So in addition to the question that just now got asked before me I would be curious about the price and the price of the other two items I added to list below. Then I have a link to the manufacturers website.

So I see it has in our oscilloscope feature that's nice. hen it might just be my reading skills but on the spec sheet and the users manual nowhere to my finding technical specifications other than just it will do these things. So if you look at the witschi technical specifications they give you in detail all the ranges and all the specifications and that seems to be lacking on this machine.

 

http://greinervibrograf.com/?pageID=34&lng=en

https://www.beco-technic.com/geraete-maschinen/uhrenpruefgeraete-kontrollgeraete/geraete-zur-pruefung-von-uhren/witschi-watch-expert-pruefgeraet-fuer-mechanische-uhren.html

https://www.beco-technic.com/geraete-maschinen/uhrenpruefgeraete-kontrollgeraete/geraete-zur-pruefung-von-uhren/witschi-chronomaster.html

Chrono Touch Operating Manual.pdf

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12 hours ago, jdm said:

This thread is about Chinese (cheap) timegrapher, anyway how much it cost? 

Are you sure that as a beginner hobbyist you need a professional model? Beside the "pleasure" of owning expensive tools. 

Have you diagnosed ot regulated a watch before? Euro 200 or 2,000 instruments would work the same. 

 

Sorry I put my question in the wrong topic, but din'd want to start a new one, because it's all about timegraphers.

Thank you sir for being worried with me, but let me tell you a story. 

 

You can go to a DIY store for a screwdriver and buy one for 1 euro, because you think it do what it's need to do, turning screws in and out, next mond it's broken and you buy a new one of 1 euro and so on.

After one year, you are tired and buy one of 10 euro. ( So now you have one (good) screwdriver and payed 22 euro total)

In real life, my principe is to buy not the most expansive one, but also not the cheapest one. ( This since I am 20 years old )

Few years ago, I did not follow my principe for one time... Wanted to buy a scooter to take with me in the RV, I only use the scooter for 2 weeks so I buyed a 2000 euro cheap one... after 2 weeks I notice it's not the quality I was expecting, sold it after those 2 weeks for a 1000 euro and buyed me a Honda of 2800 euro. ( So my scooter costed me 3800 euro )

My principe brought me in life were I am today, 47 years old,  and only once didn't follow it and it costed me money and I feel sorry for that time.

And it's not because you don't need the functions now, that you don't use them in a few years.

So thanks for your advice, but I only want to know what people think of the machine, and if there is a better alternative in the same price-range.

 

11 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

So in addition to the question that just now got asked before me I would be curious about the price and the price of the other two items I added to list below. Then I have a link to the manufacturers website.

So I see it has in our oscilloscope feature that's nice. hen it might just be my reading skills but on the spec sheet and the users manual nowhere to my finding technical specifications other than just it will do these things. So if you look at the witschi technical specifications they give you in detail all the ranges and all the specifications and that seems to be lacking on this machine.

Thank you for thinking with me...

The Witschi Watch expert is 2850 euro + VAT ( don't pay the VAT! ) ( So 1000 euro more than the Chrono Touch )

The Chronomaster is about 2050 euro + VAT but you need a computer also.

 

Thanks for thinking with me.

 

Edited by Koen

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Thanks Koen for sharing your philosophy. It's interesting, because I have also bought once a piece of s*** Chinese scooter, but I didn't even tried to resell it, I just gifted to a friend which was able to use it sometimes. I'm not the kind of person that sits aching about money lost.

Now for the specific of the professional machine that you linked I think it's good that someone makes a less expensive alternative to Witschi, which prices are robbery. Unfortunately seems like they haven't got much success so far, because I don't know of anyone using it, and I suppose that our resident expert John doesn't either.

In the end anyone is free to spend his money as he wants, and to think as he wants. And in this case my thinking stays the same: a beginner amateur that has never worked on watches before has no rational justification for buying an €2,000 tool when a €200 one does the same job, as you can read in the 5 preceeding pages of this thread. The same money can be better spent on other things. 

Note that I have used the word 'rational', watchmaking is 100% about that.  

Edited by jdm

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I bought a 2nd hand Witschi Watch Expert years ago for around 350 euro, it was from 1999 but still did a terrific job. Today I have upgraded to a newer Witschi as a guy at a watchfair offered 550 for the old Witschi...

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I have a Witschi Chronoscope S1 (1st gen, no touch screen), with automatic mic I bought new about 12 years ago. Before that I used a B200 with Gradoscope for amplitude for years. I needed to print out the tidy little sheets with timing in 6 positions for a big client so there went 7000 of the best bucks I ever spent on tools (and I have literally tons).

 

Would have about 10,000 cycles on it at an average of 3 per day which is pretty conservative, quite likely more like 20k. It's industrial gear for people who make money with it. They rarely come up secondhand because they rarely break and folks just use them and use them. I'd hate to have to go back to something less.

 

But obviously it's way overkill for someone who works on watches for fun. Unless they have the cash and enjoy top level gear (I know a couple of collectors who have Witchis). The new Chinese stuff is great, and it's about time. Before it was available a serious collector or watchmaking enthusiast had to mess with computer programs and all the hassles of interfacing the watch to that, or dig up an old paper tape machine which still command more than a weishi if functional.

 

 

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On Saturday, August 17, 2019 at 1:26 PM, nickelsilver said:

I have a Witschi Chronoscope S1 (1st gen, no touch screen), with automatic mic I bought new about 12 years ago. Before that I used a B200 with Gradoscope for amplitude for years. I needed to print out the tidy little sheets with timing in 6 positions for a big client so there went 7000 of the best bucks I ever spent on tools (and I have literally tons).

 

Would have about 10,000 cycles on it at an average of 3 per day which is pretty conservative, quite likely more like 20k. It's industrial gear for people who make money with it. They rarely come up secondhand because they rarely break and folks just use them and use them. I'd hate to have to go back to something less.

 

But obviously it's way overkill for someone who works on watches for fun. Unless they have the cash and enjoy top level gear (I know a couple of collectors who have Witchis). The new Chinese stuff is great, and it's about time. Before it was available a serious collector or watchmaking enthusiast had to mess with computer programs and all the hassles of interfacing the watch to that, or dig up an old paper tape machine which still command more than a weishi if functional.

 

 

I am only a collector too but I will buy the best I can get if affordable....for most of my tools I switched from Chinese to Swiss tools pretty quickly

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