Chinese Timegraphers

[RayCJ 13]

Hi...

Much to my delight, the Timegrapher Model 1000 arrived around noontime.   What a nice and handy piece of equipment it is!

Background:  Several weeks ago, I purchased two Seiko watches; one with 7S26 and another with a 7S36 movement.  Since their arrival, I've been taking turns wearing them for a couple days in a row.  At first, one was keeping time within in about +/- 17s/d and the other about 19s/d.   In general, both tended to lose time each day.  Through trial and error I adjusted the regulator and over a period of some 8 days or so, was able to get them running in the +/- 8s/d range.  During those initial weeks, I had no idea what the beat error or amplitude measured.

Upon analysis with the timegrapher, beat error (face down) was 0.7ms on one and 0.5ms on the other.  Amplitude was (with angle set at 52) about 300 to 330 degrees.   Without much difficulty, the beat error on both (face down) was adjusted to 0.0 ms and 0.1ms respectively and timing was set to about +2s/d.   I discovered that after making each minor adjustment, it was helpful to dismount the watch from the holder and give it a couple gentle swings.  Quite often, when the watch was placed back in the holder, it would not give exactly the same reading as prior to removing it.  Basically, the gentle swings helped the adjustment "settle into place".

I also noticed that with one watch, adjusting the speed more than a few seconds, would also change the beat error.  Basically both (beat error and speed) had to be observed and adjusted simultaneously.  

So... moving the watch thru the 6 different positions gave surprisingly good results.  The beat error did not change at all and amplitude remained in the same 300 to 330 range.  The amplitude would momentarily go outside of those ranges while the position was being changed but, would settle-down within about 5 seconds.  The speeds changed according to the different positions and in all cases, they dropped anywhere from 3 to 10s/d.

For now, I adjusted the watches (face down) for +4.  I chose that number somewhat arbitrarily with the thought that any position other than face down would result in a decrease.  In all reality, when wearing a watch, it's highly unlikely (for me anyhow) that it will be face down.  

So, it's been 9 hours since both were adjusted.  The one I'm wearing is dead-on!   The one sitting on the table is 1.5s faster from when it was set but I admit that I intentionally changed it's position in random ways throughout the afternoon and evening.

We shall see how they perform in the upcoming days.

 

Regards

Ray

 

[clockboy 1637]

If when regulating the beat error is changing then normally the end curve is not correct & in effect it moves the hairspring out of centre & also changes the beat.

[jdm 2382]

21 hours ago, RayCJ said:

I discovered that after making each minor adjustment, it was helpful to dismount the watch from the holder and give it a couple gentle swings.  Quite often, when the watch was placed back in the holder, it would not give exactly the same reading as prior to removing it.  Basically, the gentle swings helped the adjustment "settle into place".

I also noticed that with one watch, adjusting the speed more than a few seconds, would also change the beat error.  Basically both (beat error and speed) had to be observed and adjusted simultaneously.  

So... moving the watch thru the 6 different positions gave surprisingly good results.  The beat error did not change at all and amplitude remained in the same 300 to 330 range.

Why would you remove the mov.t from the machine. It is enough to let it rest 30 sec, or even better move it to a different position and rest 30 secs to "settle". You can also gently blow air on it every once in while.

BTW, 300 to 330 deg.s is unusually high amplitude for Seiko of this class. Normally it's from 220 to 270 fully wound. But I've seen enough strange things when it comes to Seiko amplitude, HS, etc to disbelieve it.

[RayCJ 13]

56 minutes ago, jdm said:

Why would you remove the mov.t from the machine. It is enough to let it rest 30 sec, or even better move it to a different position and rest 30 secs to "settle". You can also gently blow air on it every once in while.

BTW, 300 to 330 deg.s is unusually high amplitude for Seiko of this class. Normally it's from 220 to 270 fully wound. But I've seen enough strange things when it comes to Seiko amplitude, HS, etc to disbelieve it.

Well, I decided to remove the piece just to see how consistent the readings would be.  This was my very first time using the device and as time goes, I'll probably develop a technique through trial and error.  Moving it to a different position and back seems like a good suggestion.

After re-checking both watches, both are reading amplitudes between 285 and 305.   It seems to have settled down just a bit.

As for accuracy and precision... Wow, I'm really impressed.  The 7S26C was the one adjusted to 0.0 ms beat error.  I wore it all day and it held perfect time.  As best as I can tell, it's either dead-on or within 1/2 second of NTP.   It sill reads no beat error in most of the 6 positions and it still shows +4s/day in the face down position.  That's exactly where it was set to yesterday.

The other watch (7S36) was not worn today and gained 7 seconds sitting face-up since it was set about 30 hours ago.  I did wind it a little here and there.  Its beat error showed 0.3ms and read +5s/day in the face-down position.  Those readings have drifted a little from where they were last set.  I'll wear this one soon and see how it performs.

 

-Fun stuff for sure...

 

Ray

[RayCJ 13]

Just a quick update on the Seiko 5 Sport with the 7S26C engine...   Since setting the regulator last Sunday, I've worn the watch every day.  Throughout the day, it varies about +/- 1 second and is now running 2 seconds faster than where it was set on Sunday.    This is one of those watches that I hope lasts a lifetime.   I just ordered another one in a different color.  Lets see if I get lucky twice in a row.

 

Ray

[transporter 157]

Just to let you know, I'm sure the 7s movement runs at 53 and not 52 for the lift angle, go to a site www.lepsi.ch/lift-angle/ 

[RayCJ 13]

10 hours ago, transporter said:

Just to let you know, I'm sure the 7s movement runs at 53 and not 52 for the lift angle, go to a site www.lepsi.ch/lift-angle/ 

Thank you for posting that resource... It's good to know the correct specifications.

I changed the timegrapher setting to 53 and it didn't change things significantly.   Matter of fact, if I take some readings then, power the timegrapher off and on without changing the position of the watch, the overall readings and their trend, vary a small amount.  Because of the nature of timegrapher, I suspect these small variances are normal.  Anyhow, the difference in the values from changing from 52 to 53 degrees produced about the same margin of error as the differences observed when powering the unit off and on.  I would say however, the amplitude did drop a little when changing the angle setting.  If my understanding of the mechanics is correct, this is a predictable outcome.

Question:  I did not find the 7S26/36 specifically listed in that web site. Is it safe to assume that the "7S" corresponds to the 7xxx series numbers that are listed therein?    Sorry for the newbie question but, I'm totally new to the world of watches.

 

One final note...  That 7S26C is still running basically dead-on within 1.5 seconds of where I set it 4 days ago.  The other one I ordered (identical model but different color) arrived today.  I adjusted it's error and cadence to match exactly the unit that is performing so well.  I'll take turns wearing them during the day to see if the new one is another superstar.

 

Ray

[transporter 157]

No such thing as a newbie question Ray, off the top of my head I know the 7s26 movement was the newer model of the 7002   Movement by seiko, the best place I can direct you for seiko knowledge is the forum that is scwf, on there they are a friendly bunch and just as helpful as everyone is here,in fact quite a lot of us are members there aswell as here. Anyway back to the subject, on that forum there is s section that has all the tech sheets for seiko movements with schematic drawings of each one, you will notice that a lot of the movements come under the same tech sheet as they share common parts etc. 

One last thing, don't get too hung up on getting your watches +/- 5 secs or so and so per day. Some you will some you won't. A lot of watch manufacturers are happy with +/- 10+ secs a day some even more. I do agree though that it is nice to do the work and get one running nice and tight though isn't it.

[RayCJ 13]

 

4 hours ago, transporter said:

No such thing as a newbie question Ray, off the top of my head I know the 7s26 movement was the newer model of the 7002   Movement by seiko, the best place I can direct you for seiko knowledge is the forum that is scwf, on there they are a friendly bunch and just as helpful as everyone is here,in fact quite a lot of us are members there aswell as here. Anyway back to the subject, on that forum there is s section that has all the tech sheets for seiko movements with schematic drawings of each one, you will notice that a lot of the movements come under the same tech sheet as they share common parts etc. 

One last thing, don't get too hung up on getting your watches +/- 5 secs or so and so per day. Some you will some you won't. A lot of watch manufacturers are happy with +/- 10+ secs a day some even more. I do agree though that it is nice to do the work and get one running nice and tight though isn't it.

Good morning (or evening as the case may be)...   Once again, thanks for pointing-out the Seiko hangout.

I'm finding it a little difficult not getting exited about a $55 (USC) watch that's holding between 0.5 to 1.0 s/day.   Matter of fact, its downright blowing my mind that a mechanical device, regardless of cost, can do this.  It so happens, my professional career involved a good bit of reliability engineering -and I'm scratching my head thinking "this should be about impossible".  Well, not only is it possible in a single case, it seems the new watch that just arrived may be performing equally as well.  I set it last night at 5:50pm and at 6:00am, it's reading (as best I can tell via comparison to an NTP computer display (https://time.is)) its dead on.

What I find truly amazing is that I wear the watch for about 16 hours a day and take it off at night.  It's amazing to me that the environmental changes do not precipitate a greater fluctuation.  -Wow!

Yes though, I can see how some might regarding having a watch with a second-hand display as a curse...  So far, I've got it under control .

 

Ray

 

[transporter 157]

Your welcome mate, I do understand the facination in a piece of engineering still performing so well after so long, guess that's why people say seikos are bombers i.e. **BLEEP** reliable and bomb proof!!!!

[RayCJ 13]

19 minutes ago, transporter said:

Your welcome mate, I do understand the facination in a piece of engineering still performing so well after so long, guess that's why people say seikos are bombers i.e. **BLEEP** reliable and bomb proof!!!!

LOL...   From the first grade and for a decade or two after college, I wore a mechanical wristwatch.  I will admit in public forum, my watches were selected without a second sweep hand because they tended to be off by a minute a day.  I never had the patience to listen to the radio station time announcements to set it but maybe once a week or so.  By the end of the week, they were 5 minutes or more off.  Heisenberg was right...  The closer you look, the more wrong you are.

Have a good day...  Off to the races now (wearing my trusty Seiko of course).

 

Ray

[RayCJ 13]

A quick update about the new Seikos that arrived the other day...  (they are the same model like the one in the link but different colors).

The first one, is truly remarkable and is keeping time within approximately +/- 1 second a day.  Its time right now is one second faster than when it was set last week.

The others were adjusted just once with a timegrapher on the day they arrived and all are between -2 to -4 seconds from when they were set.  Each has been worn several hours a day.  I have the full set now (black, ivory, green and blue) and have purchased several suitable wristband replacements to suite different attire. I found a brand of wristband with a "easy release" pin mechanism to facility speedy change-over.  The bands have not arrived yet and I'm crossing my fingers they are good quality and that the pin holds securely.  These shall be my daily timepieces.  I am a very happy camper.  

http://www.jomashop.com/seiko-watch-snk809.html

Thanks for listening to my silly newfound endeavor with wristwatches...

 

Ray

[jdm 2382]

Yes Seikos are disturbingly accurate when they behave

Now that you know that, you can move on to learn how to take one apart and putting it back.. thanks to this watch repair forum!

[RayCJ 13]

2 hours ago, jdm said:

Yes Seikos are disturbingly accurate when they behave

... [Photo removed]...

Now that you know that, you can move on to learn how to take one apart and putting it back.. thanks to this watch repair forum!

 

Yes indeed, I would like to try my hand at servicing watches.  I'm on the lookout for some "sad but serviceable" movements that I can try to clean/repair.  Quite likely though, I won't embark on that journey until the Fall or Winter season.  

 

Ray 

[transporter 157]

If you like your seikos try ebay and search for "the watch collector" ramon has many movements for repairs, many are quite rusty but they harvest a  number of spares that you will find valuable when future repairs cross your bench 

[RayCJ 13]

1 hour ago, transporter said:

If you like your seikos try ebay and search for "the watch collector" ramon has many movements for repairs, many are quite rusty but they harvest a  number of spares that you will find valuable when future repairs cross your bench 

LOL:  I went to ebay looking for that seller; didn't find him but, ended-up buying a couple more watch bands that were appealing.

-Sigh...

 

Ray

[RayCJ 13]

Another (possibly final) update on the Seiko 5 Sport watches...   I've managed to collect all 5 in the series with the latest having a red dial and blue band.   I'm just thrilled with it:  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00H3WT928/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

3 of the 5 watches are running superbly -far beyond my expectations.  I've been keeping them wound continuously and taking turns through the day wearing them.  One of them is amazingly only 8 seconds advanced from when it was set well over a week ago.   Two others are running within +7, -2 S/day.   The red one just arrived today and is too early to tell.  The blue one has defied my initial attempt to regulate it and is "misbehaving" at +10 to +13 S/day.   I shall try again soon to improve it.

Finally, I'm working-up the nerve to take one apart.  Naturally, I've grown fond of the ones I already have so, I will purchase a test specimen.   I'll let you know how that goes when the time comes.

 

Regards

Ray

[santijyomaha 5]

Hi everyone! I am looking to get a new cheap timegrpaher, I am just a hobbist and I would like to get one useful piece at a low cost since I am from Argentina and the argentinian peso is really devaluated. I have seen some chinese models on Amazon and Ebay (US) and I am interested in the N.1000 or N.1900...

My question i...  is there any of these chinese brands anny better than the other? Weishi, Otoolworld, Mophorn? I hope ou can helpp me, thank you so much!

[santijyomaha 5]

hi everyone! I would like to know how have your timegrpher been working so far, I am thinking about getting one of those, but I still dont know if I should get N. 1000 or N. 1900. It would be my very first timegrapher... Any recommendation?

[dadistic 342]

I have one of these, it seems to work well. I have not had the luxury of being able to compare it with other models. These machines are available with different brand labels, Weishi, TYMC, sometimes they are sold with no brand at all.

Ace Timer 1000

Edited June 16, 2017 by dadistic

[jdm 2382]

I am looking to get a new cheap timegrpaher, I am just a hobbist and I would like to get one useful piece at a low cost since I am from Argentina and the argentinian peso is really devaluated. 

For real savings, and no issues with Aduanas, I recommend that you try a software application first. You only need to get a good mic.

Edited June 17, 2017 by jdm

[PJA 23]

Hello there. I have a question about readout / operation of my timegrapher. 

1. I've tested about 15 quartz watches (new and old), and amplitude on all read either 176° or 175°. My question is whether this is the highest reading for quartz watches in contrary to 270° on mechanical watches, or is there something wrong? I've tried to search google and not much info about it.
2. When it starts in Auto mode with quartz watches it always starts with 12000 (parameters) and doesn't adjust automatically, so I have manually to dial it up to 3600 in order to get it to read properly, (with the very few mechanical watches so far it adjust itself). Is this the way it should work, or something wrong with it?
3. I've found that some quartz watches like small ladies watches and sports watches, don't give readings even though I tried pushing the watch toward the sensor, for whatever reason the reading is too weak or something?

Thanks for your help.

[JohnR725 1595]

Which timing machine are you using?

Then you can't get an answer to your question as it's an invalid question.  Unless a course I am totally misunderstanding your question then it may be a valid question. So first Link talks about mechanical watch testing And it explains how amplitude is measured. Quartz watches can be found in the second link. Unless of course and there were a few of these there were some quartz watches with a balance wheel. But as the balance wheel isn't driven by the escapement for the most part there may be an exception to that you have no way of measuring the amplitude. It is possible the timing machine is picking up the width of the stepping motor pulse confusing that with what it needs to pick up for amplitude and giving you a number.

So typically a timing machine for quartz watches is entirely different than a mechanical watch timing machine. Although you can get timing machines that will do both.

Then the problem with the ladies watches or any quartz watch without a second hand is that it does not step once per second. Especially on the ladies watches to save power they will step at a much longer time interval.

 

http://www.witschi.com/assets/files/sheets/Test and measuring technology mechanical watches.pdf

http://www.witschi.com/assets/files/sheets/Knowledge Quartz Watch.pdf

 

[PJA 23]

22 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Which timing machine are you using?

Then you can't get an answer to your question as it's an invalid question.  Unless a course I am totally misunderstanding your question then it may be a valid question. So first Link talks about mechanical watch testing And it explains how amplitude is measured. Quartz watches can be found in the second link. Unless of course and there were a few of these there were some quartz watches with a balance wheel. But as the balance wheel isn't driven by the escapement for the most part there may be an exception to that you have no way of measuring the amplitude. It is possible the timing machine is picking up the width of the stepping motor pulse confusing that with what it needs to pick up for amplitude and giving you a number.

So typically a timing machine for quartz watches is entirely different than a mechanical watch timing machine. Although you can get timing machines that will do both.

Then the problem with the ladies watches or any quartz watch without a second hand is that it does not step once per second. Especially on the ladies watches to save power they will step at a much longer time interval.

 

http://www.witschi.com/assets/files/sheets/Test and measuring technology mechanical watches.pdf

http://www.witschi.com/assets/files/sheets/Knowledge Quartz Watch.pdf

 

Many thanks for the information.

 I am using the Weishi (made in China) machine.

I've also found this info for those who may be interested.

 

[ecodec 92]

Hi Bill3 ,  I had a Timegrapher 1000 and returned it because of a fault.  I then purchased the 1900 model and I think that it is excellent. It does everything I require and performs very well.  Great value for money.  Nice for setting the Beat Error, Regulating and checking amplitude etc. The problem for me is not the Timegrapher , it is the old worn watches Ha Ha !!. Yes, get one. You will be pleased.