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Which online watch repair course?


Bill3

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I have been trying to learn to repair (or just to clean and lube) watches for two to three years.  I have acquired a great many tools, follow watch repair forums, such as this one, and spend a great deal of time tinkering with watches.  Unfortunately I am not advancing in my knowledge or skill.  I have looked around for a tutor, but have been completely unsuccessful.  Now I am considering an online course in watch repair.  I have researched those available and am trying to decide between the Tascione and Time Zone courses.  I am looking for guidance from this forum about which course is superior.  Has anyone here taken either of the courses?  Have you heard good or bad reports about either?  Any and all input will be appreciated.  

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That is a good insightful question, jdm.  I had to give the question a few minutes thought to answer.  This answer assumes that you know how difficult it is to see one's own weaknesses.  In my humble opinion my biggest problems are; not understanding how a watch works, and springing directly from the previous problem, not being able to reassemble the watch once disassembled and cleaned.  As an example, I posted on this forum about problems I was having getting the winding mechanism back in a Hamilton wristwatch that I had taken apart and cleaned.  Altogether I worked on that watch for more than a year and had several suggestions from members of this forum, but the watch is still not reassembled in a way that will allow me to wind the mainspring.  

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16 minutes ago, Bill3 said:

I have been trying to learn to repair (or just to clean and lube) watches for two to three years.  I have acquired a great many tools, follow watch repair forums, such as this one, and spend a great deal of time tinkering with watches.  Unfortunately I am not advancing in my knowledge or skill.  I have looked around for a tutor, but have been completely unsuccessful.  Now I am considering an online course in watch repair.  I have researched those available and am trying to decide between the Tascione and Time Zone courses.  I am looking for guidance from this forum about which course is superior.  Has anyone here taken either of the courses?  Have you heard good or bad reports about either?  Any and all input will be appreciated.  

Hi Bill and jdm

I am taking the TimeZone course. It is $75 per level and there are 3 levels. I believe that it is a good course for the price and, since you already have tools, the course is all you need to pay for. Machiel Kalf is the facilitator and he is a well known teacher of watchmaking in Amsterdam. TimeZone doesn't give you any recognized papers or anything like that; it is simply a means by which to learn something about watches. I found it a good way to do it.

On the other hand, although the lessons are more structured, there is no problem that members of WRT can't help you with. 

It is ultimately your decision.

Dave

 

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1 hour ago, Bill3 said:

That is a good insightful question, jdm.  I had to give the question a few minutes thought to answer.  This answer assumes that you know how difficult it is to see one's own weaknesses.  In my humble opinion my biggest problems are; not understanding how a watch works, and springing directly from the previous problem, not being able to reassemble the watch once disassembled and cleaned.  As an example, I posted on this forum about problems I was having getting the winding mechanism back in a Hamilton wristwatch that I had taken apart and cleaned.  Altogether I worked on that watch for more than a year and had several suggestions from members of this forum, but the watch is still not reassembled in a way that will allow me to wind the mainspring.  

What about placing that on the side and get busy with something else. It can have subtle faults or be difficult for whatever reason. Also note, this is just and hobby, basically you spend to kill time and learn. No results are guaranteed. 

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Dave,  

Thank you for your recommendation.  Endorsement of the course by someone who is currently enrolled is a strong incentive to take that course.  

Which level are you currently taking?  Is the course primarily practical or theoretical?  

Thanks to you and jdm for taking the time to respond to my question.  

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1 hour ago, Bill3 said:

That is a good insightful question, jdm.  I had to give the question a few minutes thought to answer.  This answer assumes that you know how difficult it is to see one's own weaknesses.  In my humble opinion my biggest problems are; not understanding how a watch works, and springing directly from the previous problem, not being able to reassemble the watch once disassembled and cleaned.  As an example, I posted on this forum about problems I was having getting the winding mechanism back in a Hamilton wristwatch that I had taken apart and cleaned.  Altogether I worked on that watch for more than a year and had several suggestions from members of this forum, but the watch is still not reassembled in a way that will allow me to wind the mainspring.  

If I was you I would start with a simple lever escapement pocket watch movement, it's big and simple to practise on.

Treat it as 5 seperate mechanisms and try and get your head around how they work together. Take it to bits and practise putting it together until you know it inside out, then practise your lubrication until you get it perfect every time.

The keyless work winds it up and engages the hand set mechanism.

The motion work lets the hands turn whilst in hand set, it also makes the hour and minute hand in sink with each other. The canon pinion is an important thing to understand and why it slips to set the hands.

The barrel and barrel bridge is the power source which is wound up by the keyless work via the ratchet wheel.

The train wheels sit under the train bridge, these wheels are powered by the barrel, generally when putting in these wheels start with the escape wheel and work back over to the barrel, remember wheels drive pinions to make the escape wheel turn many more times than the barrel.

lastly is the escapement and balance. This is the hart of the watch and is what makes it keep time, this is very complex to understand but to start with just learn the basics and how to oil it.

 

Once you have understood all these different parts of a movement and got it in your head how they work together then that's the basics learned. Most Watch's are made of these 5 mechanisms together, some have another mechanism added on like a day/date or automatic block, but are still work the same as your pocket watch, albeit sometimes arranged slightly different or on a smaller scale.

 

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Folkvisor, can you say roughly how long each level took you and at what rate did you need to work at it.

i.e. hours per day or days per week. I know it's a difficult thing to quantify but I would just like some sort of overview as I'm thinking of going down this route as well.

Many thanks, Mike

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There is no time limit for any of the levels. You can work at your own speed.

Also, you can revisit any level you've paid for before as well as ask questions on the blog they have.

It isn't perfect but I learned a lot from the course. It doesn't make you a master watchmaker but I really enjoyed the course - even thought the movements didn't always cooperate - mostly my lack of expertise. 

Practice helps where watchmaking is concerned.

Dave

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16 minutes ago, jdm said:

What about placing that on the side and get busy with something else. It can have subtle faults or be difficult for whatever reason. Also note, this is just and hobby, basically you spend to kill time and learn. No results are guaranteed. 

That is probably good advice.  However, no hobby or any other activity will continue without some positive feedback.  So far in this enterprise I have had no positive feedback, unless I count the two watch crystals that I polished the scratches out of.  

Certainly no results are guaranteed, but uniformly negative results over a long period of time will not be tolerated by the average person.  I gather from reading this and another forum, that no one has had as many negative results as I.  

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22 minutes ago, Tiktok said:

If I was you I would start with a simple lever escapement pocket watch movement, it's big and simple to practise on.

 

 

Tiktok, 

A couple of years ago I tried a Waltham pocket watch for the reasons you mentioned above.  It came apart easily and was easy to clean, however I could never get it back together.  It has an enormous plate on the back and all the pivots have to fit into place at the same time.  I tried to fit that plate every day for two months.  The only positive thing I can say about that experience is that I did not lose any parts.  It now is stored away "on the side" with many other packets of watch parts all waiting patiently to be reassembled.  

 

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12 minutes ago, Bill3 said:

That is probably good advice.  However, no hobby or any other activity will continue without some positive feedback.  So far in this enterprise I have had no positive feedback, unless I count the two watch crystals that I polished the scratches out of.  

Certainly no results are guaranteed, but uniformly negative results over a long period of time will not be tolerated by the average person.  I gather from reading this and another forum, that no one has had as many negative results as I.  

I can tell you for sure that polishing crystals is not easy. They can slip from you hands and break (happened to me), mysteriously get foggy with fine paper (happened to me too), or never reach the desired level of lustre (happens all the time). Did I regret polishing crystals? Hell no. 

Today I could not fit a bridge on 7S26 movement, something that i did tens of time. Why? I don't know, perhaps I will know tomorrow. I took my scooter and drove off to kill time in another place, I'm happy anyway.

Really, if you want to move on and grow just go ahead and take apart another movement. Chose one that is covered by one of Mark's videos, that way you will have the best visual training possible. Results will come, just give yourself another 10 chances or so.

 

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5 minutes ago, jdm said:

 

Really, if you want to move on and grow just go ahead and take apart another movement. Chose one that is covered by one of Mark's videos, that way you will have the best visual training possible. Results will come, just give yourself another 10 chances or so.

 

Jdm, that is great advice and I intend to follow your recommendation.

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3 hours ago, Bill3 said:

 In my humble opinion my biggest problems are; not understanding how a watch works, and springing directly from the previous problem, not being able to reassemble the watch once disassembled and cleaned.

Bill3,

My advice: stick to one brand or mfg, Swiss or Japanese, it might help you figure out how each one works and assembly, disassembly, there are so many different mfg's, but the basic principles of watches, (how they work, balance, escape, pallet) hasn't changed much in many years. You don't say where you get watches from, obviously a watch that is already working is a heck of a lot easier to work with, then trying to diagnose and repair something that might be a basket case.  Also, if you can seek advice from local reputable watch guy, someone you can bounce questions off about projects your are working on,( I know this is getting harder to do, because of shrinking numbers of repairmen/persons). Maybe if you took the Hamilton to a pro, the 'estimate' would provide you with further info, without telling them what your intentions are, might be something you overlooked. It takes time to develop skills and know all the possible trouble to look for on watches. The AWCI has videos on their website too, generic but covers most of the basics.

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WileyDave,

Thank you for the recommendations.  I get my watches from flea markets.  That means that I get an assortment of makes and models.  I do try to buy only watches that are working.  Yours is a great idea to connect with a pro that I can bounce questions off of, unfortunately that is not possible where I live.  There are only two watch repair men and for various reasons I cannot connect with either.  I think that a coach would help more than anything.  Part of my question about an online course is whether or not an online course would fill the need of a "coach".

 

 

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Bill:

It's good you can recognize an introverted question as difficult.  They're called "blind spots" for a reason...  :)  That said, joining a class and spending money is kind of like just buying another tool.  The course isn't really going to give you the practice or motivation to learn you need. 

So, another hard question: If you've been going at this for a couple years and don't understand how a watch works, I have to ask - why not?  Please know this isn't meant insultingly.  We who are hobbyists are doing this for fun or, maybe "fun".  If it's not fun, maybe it isn't for you?  Not to discourage you but this isn't a job you need to do to put food on the table.  It should be something you derive pleasure or enjoyment fun, whether it's the sense of accomplishment of learning something new or taking a box of parts from just a box of parts to something that works.  Now, before you think I'm discouraging you out of this hobby, I'm not.  I'm saying, you seem to possess the self-awareness to realistically assess yourself.  And you obviously want to learn since you asked the question.  But maybe you've been a bit unfocused or "lost"?  We all have different motivations.  And other responsibilities (or irresponsibilities :) ) that tug us in other directions.

I remember when I first started learning about watches when my uncle game me his Omega Chronometer.  It was the 80s - no internet, jealously guarded info, people not wanting to share their secrets, fear of competition, etc.. and it was kind of overwhelming until I saw the 1949 Hamilton "How a Watch Works" movie.  I can remember sitting in the media center in the university library and re-watching that video a couple dozen times.  And it just clicked for me.  It's now available on youtube.  At the time, it was just something to read and learn about, the actual working came later when I graduated and got a job and decided drinking with friends every night wasn't the way to spend my life and wanted a new challenge.  It's been about ten years since I've worked on watches or worn a watch (I work in IT, smartphones...) but I recently found my father-in-laws old military watch and needed to break out the tools to give it the once over and the interest is rekindled.

Another question: what books have you read?  Augusta has to have a (several) public library and if they don't have watchmaking books, inter-library loan should be able to source the standards: e.g., decarle, kelly.  also, the waltham, bulova, chicago school manuals/books/courses are all freely available online with some simple google-fu.  they give a standard of knowledge that should help getting up to speed on movements and techniques.  Read!

And here's one course to take - a free one. Nicholas Hacko, an Aussie watchmaker wrote up a howto on the seiko 7s26 - http://www.clockmaker.com.au/diy_seiko_7s26/chapter1.html. It's a really nice movement to learn.  I'm a bit of a seikoholic so maybe biased but he doesn't focus on the movement as much as practicing techniques, too.  If this interests you, http://www.thepurists.com/watch/features/8ohms/7s26 is considered the definitive article on the movement in the seiko community.

 

Edited by Hertzogpholian
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7 hours ago, Hertzogpholian said:

And here's one course to take - a free one. Nicholas Hacko, an Aussie watchmaker wrote up a howto on the seiko 7s26 - http://www.clockmaker.com.au/diy_seiko_7s26/chapter1.html. It's a really nice movement to learn.  I'm a bit of a seikoholic so maybe biased but he doesn't focus on the movement as much as practicing techniques, too.  If this interests you, http://www.thepurists.com/watch/features/8ohms/7s26 is considered the definitive article on the movement in the seiko community.

 

I'll second the Nicholas Hacko online tutorial, (and the Hamilton movie). I found the tutorial to be a great help, I did the exercises in the tutorial even though they sometimes got a bit tedious, and it helped a *lot*.  

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Thank you for your thoughtful answer, Hertzogpholian.  The trend of the answers received to my question has been, not to recommend a course, but to "take a break", "keep trying" etc.  Your answer recommends that I look closer at my motivation and perhaps drop the whole enterprise.  Socrates used the maxim 'know thyself' and I probably need to think more deeply about my motivation for watch repair as a hobby.  

Watch repair was meant to be something to do in retirement, and it has filled a lot of hours.  It has also provided hours of frustration.  I truly believe that my problems in learning about the working of watches is related to the learning environment.  I learn best in a setting where there is discussion, give and take, and feedback.  Watch repair is a solitary endeavor.  I sometimes feel like a monk working on an illuminated manuscript.  

 

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On 14. apr. 2016 at 5:44 PM, Bill3 said:

I have been trying to learn to repair (or just to clean and lube) watches for two to three years.  Any and all input will be appreciated.  

Well, i just started this courses by Christian Laas (watchmaker in  Patek Philippe Museum) he explain things pretty cool… and great movie quality !!  Learn Watchmaking by Christian Lass >>>>

There are some free trails as well !!  

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10 hours ago, Bill3 said:

Thank you for your thoughtful answer, Hertzogpholian.  The trend of the answers received to my question has been, not to recommend a course, but to "take a break", "keep trying" etc.  Your answer recommends that I look closer at my motivation and perhaps drop the whole enterprise.  Socrates used the maxim 'know thyself' and I probably need to think more deeply about my motivation for watch repair as a hobby.  

Watch repair was meant to be something to do in retirement, and it has filled a lot of hours.  It has also provided hours of frustration.  I truly believe that my problems in learning about the working of watches is related to the learning environment.  I learn best in a setting where there is discussion, give and take, and feedback.  Watch repair is a solitary endeavor.  I sometimes feel like a monk working on an illuminated manuscript.  

 

motivation is important.  second only to recognition, imo.  if you've been spending time on it, you _have_ been getting better.  If only learning what not to do.  hahaha...  perseverance and all that.  But...  I didn't put this in the message because I was getting a wee bit long but maybe your issue is unfocused practice?  If it's overwhelming to being with, trying to learn all the different calibers and their idiosyncrasies at the same time is numbing. 

That's one thing that's kind of zen-like about the hacko "class".  step 1 - take this apart. step 2 - put it back together.  step 3 - do it ten times until you're bored with it.  that repetition builds muscle memory and takes you from conscious incompetence to conscious competence into unconsciousness competence.  I don't remember if he mentions it or not but one thing that helped me was to name all the parts when I was doing something.  Kind of like as if you were narrating a video.

If you want some more discussion, just ask.  I can keep typing...  :lol:

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Hi Bill,

  I was looking around yesterday and saw your post here. It seems to me that you have the desire to learn the watch repair techniques but have hit a few road blocks. I went back and found your post about the Hamilton that is giving you the winding stem issue. From what I saw I must say that if that was your first attempt well done! You took it apart and got it back together and it still runs. That is no small feat. From what I understand the only issue is the stem will wind the watch but when you try to pull it out to put it in setting position the stem comes out. This could be from a problem totally unrelated to anything you have done. The tip on the setting lever that holds the stem in place could be worn out.

   You may not want to think about that watch anymore but to me they are puzzles that beg me to figure them out. If you have time ask yourself a question or two. Did the stem work before you took the watch apart? If the answer is no then you did nothing wrong and you have a watch with some worn out parts. Could be the setting lever, (you might be able to check this by removing the stem and looking through the hole it came from to see if you can see the tip of the setting lever and estimate if there is enough there to hold in the stem. Look at the stem to insure the groove the tip fits in is in good shape) Could be the plate itself is worn allowing the stem to wobble around so that it drops under the tip of the set lever and pulls out. ( could be on end next to crown or end next to the center of the movement where the crown fits in after going through the sliding pinion. In any of these cases you did everything right and just have a watch with worn parts. Determining what is wrong with a watch that doesn't work is different that disassembling, cleaning and reassembling a working watch, that's why everyone says to start your first watch project on a watch that is working.

    Now if you answered yes to the question then something has happened. The end of the stem that fits into the center of the movement may have snapped off. When you cleaned the movement you may have cleaned out some debris that was actually keeping the stem in position. Or it may be something as simple as the stem may not be all the way in. Watching some videos I see where some stems have just been pushed it and the set lever spring allows the set lever to jump up and allows the stem to pop into place. On this sort of watch that won't happen. Here you have to partially unscrew the set lever spring and sometimes push down on the set lever screw while inserting the stem. Didn't mean to tell you what you already may know but I don't have any idea what you do know.

     Now I still have to say that if you took that movement apart and got it back together so that it runs on your first try then you did well. Sometimes stems can be a bear. I was putting new hands on an Accutron 218 the other day and I was afraid I was going to have to disassemble the watch just to get the stem back in. For some reason I could get the stem in but then the watch would only set the time and I could not push it in to home position. I finally got it to seat properly but I was a little worried for a minute or two.

   I see that you are fairly close to me geographically speaking so if you should want you could send me the movement and I could take a look. All it would cost is postage. Or if you want I could try to talk you through the process of finding out what the issue may be.

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