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Movement holder; which one to buy?


Endeavor

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Hello All;

When starting my new hobby, I started off with cheap Chinese universal movement holder like these;

Screen Shot 2016-04-13 at 09.53.19.png

But I noticed that when applying force to tighten a screw, for example from the ratchet wheel and the screw happens to be on the "open"-side of the holder, the movement tends to flip out.......with all the risk of the screwdriver going somewhere (very) unwanted.

I like to move on and find a decent holder, but not breaking the bank. I red MrBeat mini-project, but unfortunately I don't have the machinery. I'm sure his holders are very good quality and solid. I wouldn't mind one of his...........but I digress....

The Bergeon 4040 seems to be quite similar to the Chinese I have.

Screen Shot 2016-04-13 at 09.58.45.png

Are they worth to pay the extra?

Or have people experiences with other universal movement-holders, which are solid, have a good grip and don't break the bank?

I don't know whether the ones on the picture below are any good? They don't look very promising, but that can be deceptive......(?)

Screen Shot 2016-04-13 at 10.04.33.png

 

Hope to hear from the experience......

Regards: Roland.

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I've used two bergeon movement holders on a daily basis for over 3 years, no complaints, I also have a set of those plastic ring movement holders, never used.

It's a fairly crucial part of your equipment and I'd say for the large and small ligne size together which will hold all but a few unusual callibres very well, ~£40 is well worth it. However I am saying that without regard to your budget, so by all means take this with a pinch of salt.

Edited by Ishima
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Thanks Ishma ;)

Yes, I'm well aware that holders are, just like good screw-drives, tweezers, eye-glass etc, crucial parts of the hobby and good watch-holders should last very long.

"The enjoyment of the cheap purchase doesn't last as long as the agony of the poor quality"; that's what I'm noticing now. So I don't mind spending such an amount, if they are substantial better as my Chinese clones. There is not point in buying identical quality, but pay an arm & leg for it just because "Bergeon" is stamped in it.

I just like to make sure if they are indeed better / good and if there are any alternatives. Your experiences sound good, so that's 1x plus for the Bergeon 4040 and 4039 :) Thanks again!

 

Edited by Endeavor
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I used to have a Chinese holder the same as yours with the same results . I picked up a Bergeon 4039 from a watch fair and couldn't believe how something that looked so similar behaved so differently , since then purchased the 4040 and haven't looked back

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Very interesting Andyclient. Of course I'm not able to compare what the differences would be, but interesting that you had the same experiences as I currently have with my clones.

Actually, the price of the Bergeon 4040 at CousinsUK is £13.95 and the smaller Bergeon 4039 is £11.95 (ex.VAT), so in total less than £30 for the two.

There is also the Bergeon 4040 in Carbon Fibre for £14.95, but I'm not so sure whether this one will last as long?

So, that's 2x pluses for the Bergeon ........ going strong :thumbsu:

Edited by Endeavor
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I have the cheap Chinese copy, a Bergeon 4039, and an assortment of the plastic rings.

The precision of the Chinese copy is awful and it didn't take long before I found it necessary to replace it with the Bergeon holder which is much better to work with. I do occasionally use the plastic rings when I'm working on a movement too big for the 4039. They are ok, but not ideal, and a 4040 is on my shopping list.

What I would say is that it might be worth focusing on your technique a little if the movement has a tendency to flip. A better quality holder will certainly provide a more secure grip, but you could also adopt habits that reduce the risk. You could (assuming it is possible) rotate the movement in the holder such that the relevant screw is not on the open side of the holder. This can be a pain to be doing all the time though, so a habit I have developed is, where possible to place a finger (with cot) onto the movement opposite the screw to counter any flipping action, although this is more something that I do when undoing a particularly tight screw. Also, it might be worth looking at how much downward force you are applying to the screw. If your screw drivers are in good shape, you are using the correct size for the job, and the screw driver is properly vertical to the screw, then the amount of down force needed is minimal, correspondingly reducing the risk of a flip, slip, or scratch.

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I have the Chinese. The movement tends to slip especially when it has a plastic ring. That happens because the contact sections are cut straight and smoothly chromed . I think that if ground them to be rounded with a coarze (sp) finish there would be no problem. But all in all it works good enough anyway. 

Edited by jdm
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5 hours ago, Endeavor said:

Hello All;

When starting my new hobby, I started off with cheap Chinese universal movement holder like these;

Screen Shot 2016-04-13 at 09.53.19.png

But I noticed that when applying force to tighten a screw, for example from the ratchet wheel and the screw happens to be on the "open"-side of the holder, the movement tends to flip out.......with all the risk of the screwdriver going somewhere (very) unwanted.

I like to move on and find a decent holder, but not breaking the bank. I red MrBeat mini-project, but unfortunately I don't have the machinery. I'm sure his holders are very good quality and solid. I wouldn't mind one of his...........but I digress....

The Bergeon 4040 seems to be quite similar to the Chinese I have.

Screen Shot 2016-04-13 at 09.58.45.png

Are they worth to pay the extra?

Or have people experiences with other universal movement-holders, which are solid, have a good grip and don't break the bank?

I don't know whether the ones on the picture below are any good? They don't look very promising, but that can be deceptive......(?)

Screen Shot 2016-04-13 at 10.04.33.png

 

Hope to hear from the experience......

Regards: Roland.

Every day :) Ain't looking back. Bergeon rules this time. Have order a special Seiko 7005,6105,6309 holder from VTA . But haven't got it yet. As i tend do a lot of Seiko work 

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Thank you all so much for the valuable input. I have seen the one Oldhippy has on eBay, but they are more expensive. As for Marc suggestions; for sure, I could improve upon my techniques. With the flipping tendency of my current movement holders, I became slowly in the habit placing my finger at the opposite side, to counter-act the down force. This goes fine....... until I forget. Perhaps my screw-drivers, even though I  maintain them nicely, are not the most expensive either......having said that, I pay a lot more and bought them in the UK hoping for a better quality. However, my suspicion is that Redrooster UK had them out of China after all :(

It seems that the Bergeon 4039 and 4040 holders have a good reputation, so I will buy those. As soon as I get them, I can compare and perhaps modify the Chinese as JDM suggested.....just to have some extra holders for placing movements during the test-period ;)

It can't harm to ask around under people who have hands-on experience and I'm glad I did ! So again, thanks a lot for the info :)

Roland.

 

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The movement holder is something you don't want to skimp on.  just like tweezers or screwdrivers, they're the tool you use on EVERY job.  The movement holders are the one (two) Bergeon tools everyone should own, they're even moderately priced.  And they really are better than the $5 ones.

Buy quality, you'll only cry once.

Oh, and RedRooster is mostly Chinese and Indian copies.  Not that they're all bad but that's the rub with the copies...

Edited by Hertzogpholian
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Hertzogpholian has explained perfectly. You need a good holder that will hold the movement firmly but doesn't cause any damage, while you are working on a watch in the holder you get the confidence knowing it isn't going to move. You don't want to be working on such a thing as the balance and the movement becomes insecure because you could by accident do irreparable damage.  Buy the best you can afford and it will last you a life time. I posted the one I had and it lasted all my watch making life and I still have it.  

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Yes, fully agree with above statements. The one you have Oldhippy seems very solid, but as said it is somewhat more expensive and I'm now "used" to the Bergeon models. I'm sure yours is very good, stable and solid.

I had no problem with the Bergeon models, but I wasn't happy with the grip of my clones. I just wanted to make sure that the real Bergeons had a better grip, or were the "real-deal" so to speak, and were not like the clones, but just with "Bergeon" stamped in them.

From all the comments above, I distillate that the Bergeon holders 4040 & 4039 are indeed the real deal, so that is what I will order.

It's all a part of the learning curve ;)

Thank again :)

Edited by Endeavor
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old hippy, I like the look of the movement holder you posted.

Can you tell me the name and how do you feel about it compared with bergeon

I'm experimenting with a tool holder / vice which I spotted in the Axminster Power Tool catalogue. It may well be the way forward

It's a very well made item with accurate machining.RAY10948.JPGRAY10947.JPGRAY10946.JPGRAY10945.JPG

It comes with a wooden handle which unscrews and machined on the bottom is a ¾ "square which is intended to fit in a small vice.

Since purchasing it I have seen the same thing on sale as a watch movement holder but without the wooden  handle. 

I think this may well be the future.:woohoo-jumping-smiley-emoticon:

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Not to answer for Oldhippy, but the one I saw on eBay was a "Star" movement-holder.

It's £12,-, but postage to Denemark is anther £11.49.........making it not such a good deal for me.

To me, this one looks similar (?) as what Oldhippy posted : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Star-No-160-Movement-Holder-/252321503944?hash=item3abf889ac8:g:PcEAAOSwT5tWQNPr

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On April 13, 2016 at 4:47 AM, Andyclient said:

I used to have a Chinese holder the same as yours with the same results . I picked up a Bergeon 4039 from a watch fair and couldn't believe how something that looked so similar behaved so differently , since then purchased the 4040 and haven't looked back

I have the 4040 too. It is very good as long as you actually 'capture' the movement properly. If you don't - and it is often hard to make sure the movement is secure - and it moves when your are setting a spring or something, there can be issues.

Dave

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One "advantage" to the hand vise (axminster, above) is that you can attach it to the workbench/vise and know it's not going to move if you're really horking on something.  But...  how often do you do that?  Plus, you can't move the movement around to get to the other side easily and you'll find that really limiting since proper tool-movement alignment requires moving the movement (ha!) a lot.  With the movement locked down in place, you'll get sloppy and awkward with the tools just so you don't have to unlock and readjust and that leads to slipping, which leads to, well, we don't want to go there...  :)

It does come in handy though - another arrow in the quiver.  One thing you'll want to do is machine the pins a bit lower for holding a movement.  At least, I found I needed to do that - otherwise, you'll keep bumping your tweezers into the pins and that just drove me crazy.

oldhippy's holder is nice and wide/stable whilst also allowing easy re-positioning.  They go for $20-25 in the US on the bay.  Maybe the best of both worlds?

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