Watchmaker or what?

[Scouseget]

Hi all.

While I'm sure there really are some real watch MAKERS in this august group of amazingly talented people, most of us, especially us rookies, are probably, at best, watch repairers, or watch restorers, Despite this, we seem to have the most flattering term of watch maker applied to us all and I'm wondering why this is. An analogy would be someone who repairs or restores motorcycles, they are mechanics not motorcycle makers so why makers for us lot?

I hope this doesn't insult anyone because that's not the intention but when people ask me about my hobbies, I tend to say that I "fiddle with watches and clocks" - is there a better yet modest term I should use instead?

It's still sunny in Edmonton - yeah!

[Mark]

I suppose if I was being argumentative, I could say that I am making good a watch that was broken.

I actually consider myself a watch repairer BUT sometimes I describe myself as a watchmaker because it seems to be a generally accepted term for watch repairers to identify themselves as being.

In the same way, a boxer who throws a Haymaker does not exactly make Hay.

And whilst many "horological technicians" spend all their time repairing timepieces, many do make individual parts from time to time. And many, given time and resources could possibly actually make a watch of sorts from scratch - but in this modern age it's not financially viable. We have to make a living - and repairing is what brings the most profit.

So maybe the term should be "theoretical watchmaker" lol

Is that Edmonton in north London??

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Alaskamick]

If you want to know how to identify a "Watch maker" please read the story of George Daniels and Roger Smith.

George was a watch maker. He spent his whole life teaching himself to make every bit of a watch except for springs and crystals.

 He was a true watchmaker.

When Roger went to him and asked to be apprenticed George sent him away, said he didn't have the time to teach him and said   " come back when you have made a watch "

From memory I think it was about 2 years before he went back to show George the watch he'd made. George looked at it, told him it was no good and said " make another one but this time do it properly"

It took a further five years before he took his second watch to George.

George asked him, who made the dial - Paul " I did "

                                Who made the case - Paul " I did "

and so on until eventually George said you're now a " Watch Maker and you can come and work under me and I'll guide you.

George is now passed on and Paul runs his own workshop on the Isle Of Mann and has a team off young men working for him and he trains them in all aspects of watchmaking.

Paul is the only true watchmaker that I know of.  All the rest are watch repairers, Watch assemblers or if you like watch restorers and can never claim to be " Watch Makers "

This in no way belittles the skills which we all have but please don't call yourselves watch makers because you never will be.

 

[Ishima]

It is tricky, 'Watch Repairer' is such a clumsy and clunky term, when leaving phone messages for customers on a daily basis, i concede to describe myself as "the watch repairman".

Technician is a good but imperfect word to describe the skill set of most 'watch makers' because there's many small aspects of an artisan nature, or craftsmanship even at the low levels that someone who does something purely 'technical', such as electrical engineering, would likely know nothing about. 

I would like it if there was a better term out there.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Ishima

[WileyDave]

I once corrected a person who called me a watchmaker, specifically because I don't make watches. Diagnosis and repair are more the skillset, I would consider a watchmaker one who can cut a staff on a lathe or fashion an extinct part from a spec drawing, a much higher level of skill achieved only after years of practice. 

Technician sounds like someone who replaces batteries.

[oldhippy]

A watch maker is someone who can make parts for a watch and has the ability to do so. The same goes for a clock maker.

A watch repairer/clock repairer is someone who repairs doesn't make parts.

[WillFly]

I think Paul - correction - Roger Smith is the only English - or even British - watchmaker in the true sense of the word. Coincidentally, I was looking at the Harold Pinchbeck watch site (Harold Pinchbeck watches are actually under the ownership of Paul Pinchbeck) who, like some other firms in this country, advertise their product as "Handmade watches made in England". "Wow", I thought - at last English watches crafted by English watchmakers". Their website strapline reads: "Before you Buy that Big-brand Watch Check out this English Alternative!"

Alas - just go to any of the watches advertised, look at the details of these "handmade watches made in England" and read the specs. True, the case, glass, bezel, strap, etc., are all made in England by small crafts businesses. Then look at the movement details... Swiss quartz... Swiss automatic...

More bullshi*t. I believe they should not be allowed, under the Trades Descriptions Act, to come up with such grossly inaccurate advertising. Perhaps I'm being petty minded, but I would truly love to see a proper British maker making 100% British movements. They wouldn't have to be Paul Smith standards - even something as straightforward as a Smith's Astral type watch would be wonderful to see again.

Not in my lifetime, I guess.

[Alaskamick]

Well said Willfly. People use terminology which has no accuracy and which can be most misleading.

I think that nearly all so called watchmakers are actually watch assemblers. A lot of lovely stuff produced but not actually made by them in the true sense.

[jdm]

Too much overloading into a mere term. Values and skills are what one does, not the words people use. Besides, now as before, true small independent makers of watches are in Switzerland, how do they call themselves in French or German ? Idle question anyway. Personally however I like the term "master watchmaker" to distinguish.

[Mark]

1 hour ago, WillFly said:

I think Paul Smith is the only English

Roger Smith?

57 minutes ago, jdm said:

Too much overloading into a mere term

Agreed. It's what I was trying to express earlier, the term "Watchmaker" is a general term these days for someone who works on watches. Personally when someone asks me what I do, I say i'm a watchmaker and I quickly follow this with "But I don't actually make watches, I repair them". And as JDM says - it doesn't really matter. 

Yes, Roger Smith and his team could be classed as the only true Watchmakers in the UK in the sense that they manufacture and build watches. But that is using the word Watchmaker as a literal, in fact - in that sense is it really a word? It should be a phrase "watch maker", two words. The single word "Watchmaker" can also be an adopted word to describe a watch repairer - I have no problem with that.

I was in Sainsbury's Butcher counter earlier, I didn't see much butchery going on - no blood on the floor, no carcasses on the bench being hacked to pieces. Might not be a brilliant analogy but hopefully you get my point.

[bobm12]

Ok, my take on it:

This argument is basically splitting hairs! Here is the demonstration that "We are all watchmakers" We, people that work in watches are watchmakers since without us a watch simply doesn't exist.

Let me explain: a true watch is supposed to give the time -- with more or less accuracy but decent time. A broken watch is inherently not a watch since it doesn't fulfill its original function: giving time. Forget all the complications and everything else. If it gives time it is either a watch or a clock...and some languages don't make that distinction by the way. So we will use the word watch for both.

Object gives time = watch => watch exists.

Object doesn't give time != watch => watch doesn't exist/not a watch, just a piece of junk/broken/garbage/something else/mother-in-law "personal" massager....

Now, (translating the above) if it is not giving time it is not a watch so if we fix it and MAKE it give time it becomes a watch or a clock, i.e. watch/clock exist. Ergo, we are all watchmakers. LQQD!

Cheers,

Bob

[Mark]

4 minutes ago, bobm12 said:

watch/clock exist. Ergo, we are all watchmakers

Absolutely love the use of the word "Ergo". Would have been better with the phrase "Ipso Facto"

[bobm12]

How about LQQD? Quod Erat Demonstandum!

You are abosolutely right Mark. Only that "Ipso Facto" reduced the amount of watchmakers since it only considers those that work fast! Like in: " I want my watch fixed IPSO FACTO" for a customer today that want's his watch back as soon as "yesterday". And since we are not splitting hairs here I wanted to include all, even the slow ones: mainly me!

[Mark]

1 minute ago, bobm12 said:

How about LQQD? Quod Erat Demonstandum!

I tried that once - but it got stuck!!

[bobm12]

[WillFly]

I don't know about LQQD or QED, but I like the French abbreviation LHOOQ.

Puzzled?

Well, the French pronunciation of the letters LHOOQ is Ell Ash Oh Oh Koo - which, translated into words becomes: "Elle a chaud au cul".

Which means, roughly, "She's got a hot bot".

LHOOQ. Mmmm...

[bobm12]

Good choice, Will! I'll be using that instead while teaching math to some middle school students! I'm sure they'll get better grades from now on.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[Cad101]

I've made the odd spring and refurbished a dial and occasionally cabbaged a part that's similar to the part I need using a file, but I wouldn't class myself as a watch maker just someone who loves watches and hates to see them not doing the job they were made to do "tell us the time" I repair broken watches I don't make them and I wouldn't have a clue where to start.

[oldhippy]

If you take up an apprenticeship which is 5 years plus 2 years as an approver during that time if served properly and you have a good workshop equipped out you will learn to make certain parts from scratch such as a winding stem, balance staff and repivoting wheels and cutting teeth. That's what my master taught me, that is why I call myself a watch/clockmaker. At some collages here in England people take a course in watch repairing for 6 months at the end of 6 mouths they call themselves watch repairers which is a insult to those that have gone through the proper procedures. I took on a student from a collage they said he was the best that they had, when it came to work such as re - bushing a time piece he knew nothing, I ended up sacking him because by the time I'd showed him what to do I thought I might as well do it all myself.

[Scouseget]

Wow, lots of opinions about this for sure. 

If we take some of them as stated in this thread, then I suppose even most of the big brand names, such as Oris (my watches are Oris) can't truly be called watch makers because they use ETA movements. Do they even make their own cases and straps or is everything out-sourced and Oris only assembles their watches? Does watch maker then only apply to the movement maker or do making such peripherals and/or assembling get them into the same naming league? 

Do you think watch tinkerer might be a good moniker for a rookie like me?

I'm trout fishing on the Bow River tomorrow - almost as much fun as this!

[Marc]

2 hours ago, Scouseget said:

 

Do you think watch tinkerer might be a good moniker for a rookie like me?

 

That's how I usually describe my horological endeavours.

[Geo]

I personally think the term "Watchmaker" is one of the the most well established and biggest misnomers around these days.  It probably stems from centuries ago when the true watchmaker was actually the same person that would fix watches.  

When mass production of watches appeared away back, it would still have been the original old watchmaker that would be employed to repair the faulty mass produced items.

As more mass produced watches were manufactured, more and more "Watch Repairers" were required.  In my oppinion this is the name that should have been given to this trade.  The skill level of a watchmaker is way beyond the very high skill level of the best repairers, and because if that I think there should have been a clear distinction made between the two.

[bobm12]

Well, I guess there are words we can't really explain but are good when stablished. Watchmaker, regardless of origin, IMHO is one of those and good enough for what we do. For, why find a 3-mile word and end up with a full book worth of explanations about what we do, if one word, as stablished in our language -- would do the trick?

Here is an example of another "meaningless" word:

"rainmaker" is a person who brings in new business and wins new accounts almost by magic, since it is often not readily apparent how this new business activity is caused.

So, in the previous example, nobody is actually making rain! Therefore, I go again with the QED which Miamians, here, write, as a joke: "LQQD" due to the misinterpretation -- in Math -- of the acronym immigration has given us -- foreign teachers; we natives see it as language enrichment...and funny -- When written it pretty much resembles someone looking at us: a pair of eyes? ! Smiles, anyone! Oh, OK, not funny! 

Also, it is doubtful that "moneymaker" refers to the person printing/designing/whatever the money but more like the person "bringing" money to his bank/company/wife account!

So, there you have it. We are great at "topicmaking"!

Cheers,

Bob

 

 

[Mark]

@bobm12, you really should consider teaching as a profession

[canwdarose]

I want to know why the Bow River has suddenly appeared in Edmonton, when every good Flames fan knows Oilers and water just don't mix.