New additions to the K and D Inverto staking tool reference site

[tomcolson]

I've made a number of new additions to the K and D Inverto staking tool reference site including:

Section for Inverto accessories
1958 version of the K&D tools catalog
High-resolution photographs of a Inverto Deluxe 18R
Two C.& E. Marshall staking tool catalogs (large format and small format) with stake and stump lists

At this point, I've exhausted all of my reference materials. If anyone has any references that I haven't posted and is willing to share, please let me know.

[Hertzogpholian]

Hi Tom: Love your site.  Well done... 

Found it last week when I got my No. 17 and was looking for reference info for the cleaning & restoration.

 

[Cougarnaut]

Very nice reading, thank's.

Dirk

[Geo]

Altogether a tremendous piece of work that will help many identify their sets and accessories in the future.

if you have run out of K&D material, you could always start on Boley.

[bobm12]

I love it Tom! I'm still browsing through it. Is there a way to have some sort of "interchangeability" parts info (stakes, stumps, etc) for Bergeon, Star, Boley...whatever is still available to "feed" our K and Ds? Meaning, stuff that it accepts from other manufacturers.

Cheers,

Bob

[tomcolson]

11 hours ago, Hertzogpholian said:

Hi Tom: Love your site.  Well done... 

Found it last week when I got my No. 17 and was looking for reference info for the cleaning & restoration.

 

Glad to hear that you've found the site useful. 

Does your No. 17 have the short screw removal stakes (top row in the box)? If so, and any of them are intact, I'd appreciate some information about them. I need to rehab all of the ones in my first No. 18 but I don't know exactly which direction to go.

 

[tomcolson]

7 hours ago, Geo said:

Altogether a tremendous piece of work that will help many identify their sets and accessories in the future.

if you have run out of K&D material, you could always start on Boley.

Thanks for the kind words Geo. I'd be risking divorce if I started on Boley :-).

[tomcolson]

1 hour ago, bobm12 said:

I love it Tom! I'm still browsing through it. Is there a way to have some sort of "interchangeability" parts info (stakes, stumps, etc) for Bergeon, Star, Boley...whatever is still available to "feed" our K and Ds? Meaning, stuff that it accepts from other manufacturers.

Cheers,

Bob

Bob, I hope you find the site helpful. 

A few years ago, Tom Adelstein created a stake compatibility list and posted it on his site http://www.american-globe-tools.com/. He's in between ISPs right now, so you can't download any of his reference files. I've attached a pdf of his list here.

AdelsteinCross-over-punches.pdf

Edited April 6, 2016 by tomcolson

[Hertzogpholian]

1 hour ago, tomcolson said:

Glad to hear that you've found the site useful. 

Does your No. 17 have the short screw removal stakes (top row in the box)? If so, and any of them are intact, I'd appreciate some information about them. I need to rehab all of the ones in my first No. 18 but I don't know exactly which direction to go.

 

If you're referring to the "sub punches" that also appeared in Item #316, then yes.  What info do you need?  Happy to share back anything I can.

My set came with 8 of them but they were more like a collection of broken pivots.  I think maybe 1 or 2 were intact.  I'm not a broken screw puncher-outer though (alum or sulfuric for me) so they've just sat there untouched.

 

[bobm12]

Hi Tom,

Thank you for the pdf! Saved!  

Cheers,

Bob

[tomcolson]

19 hours ago, Hertzogpholian said:

If you're referring to the "sub punches" that also appeared in Item #316, then yes.  What info do you need?  Happy to share back anything I can.

My set came with 8 of them but they were more like a collection of broken pivots.  I think maybe 1 or 2 were intact.  I'm not a broken screw puncher-outer though (alum or sulfuric for me) so they've just sat there untouched.

 

Sounds like your set doesn't have what I'm looking for. The first Inverto sub-punches are different from those in the No. 316. In the picture below, you can see them in the top row across the box. They appear to have been about 1/2 length stakes with hardened tips of various diameters inserted in one end. I have an early No. 18 with the 1/2 length stakes, but they are all so damaged that I can't tell how to rebuild them.

Thanks for the offer to help.

 

[Hertzogpholian]

ah, sub punches before they were sub punches.  Sorry, no, don't have them.  Did these mini "punch stakes" fit into a regular diameter holder so as to be used in the traditional manner?  Or where they intended to be used free-form?

as to rebuilding, the machinist in me says it would be rather simple: don't bother.  Make up a #316-style replacement. No historical accuracy but a better and more versatile tool.  I'm sure you have some extra stakes laying around - e.g., broken center wheel punches.  just grind the tip flat, put on a slight chamfer so you don't cut yourself and drill a hole of the desired diameter for the punch and insert the sub-punch into the "handle".  press-fit with a slight friction fit since with use, they'll require replacement or if too loose, a minute dab of grease will hold the punch in the handle.  

for the punch insert itself, any carbon steel should work fine.  heat treating will be fun since they're so small.  heat to red, quench in water, vertically in, swirling and then a quick temper in the toaster oven, say 15 minutes at 300F. Probably too small to temper with a torch, the colors would travel too quickly, lighter or the stovetop might work - like when sterilizing a needle to pop a blister.  hours of fun online reading about heat treating, if you're interested.

 

[tomcolson]

It's not 100% clear how the original style sub-punches were constructed or used. 

Option one is an integral, small-diameter shank on one end and a uniformly sized hole on the other. The uniformly sized hole would accept a hardened punch tip which could be easily replaced. To make the sub-punch long enough to be used in the frame, the small shank would have been held in something akin to the No. 120 holder for the more modern sub-punches. 

Option two is that the hardened screw removal tip was integral to the shaft of the sub-punch. The uniformly sized hole in the other end would then be a socket for the end of a plain punch (like the balance staff remover punches) to increase the overall length.

I've seen a lot of sub-punches with ragged nubs on one end and empty holes on the other. I think this indicates that option two is more likely.

I'm looking at this task as a restoration as much as a functional improvement, hence my desire to get back to something close to original. If I decide to make some straight-up, functional replacements, I've got plenty of ratty, old stakes to use as raw material.
 

[Hertzogpholian]

yeah, my guess would be number two as well.  Also supporting: the introduction of the "insert-style" sub punches were a big "new and improved' deal when they came out.

 

[tomcolson]

Some new information on the question of the old style screw knocking punches. Uncle Larry just posted a nice Inverto 17 set at http://www.execulink.com/~lfoord/tools.html. Item #5241, towards the bottom of the page.

The screw knocking punches are shown quite clearly in the pictures and are made in the 2nd way we were discussing above. There also appears to be a stake with a long, plain cylindrical end that could be the extension stake.

Mystery solved?

[Hertzogpholian]

looks like it.  could email him for better pics (i.e., in focus) of those specific punches. 

[TimFitz]

Tom

Can you tell me if all  K&D staking sets used the same diameter punches and tools? What I mean is , will punches from any K&D fit all? 

[tomcolson]

Apologies that it has taken so long for me to reply to your question.

All K&D punches I've found work in all of the frames I own (a number of different Inverto models and a New Model 12).

What I *think* is true is that all the punches are the same diameter: No. 31 Stubs' Wire Gage, 0.185". I've mic'ed a random selection of punches from my newest, oldest and a middle aged (?) Inverto, and all had diameters within 0.0005" of the No. 31 SWG nominal of 0.185".

One thing to note: the punches from K&D's older (non-Inverto) tools are longer than those in the Inverto.The Inverto punches were likely shortened to facilitate their use when inverted. The longer punches have letter prefixes on the punch number (e.g. A12, B72, etc.)...mostly. I have some longer punches with a letter S *suffix*, not prefix. I've yet to figure out what sets these S punches were used with. Just to be even more confusing, at some point K&D started using an A suffix to denote smaller center holes in some of their (shorter) Inverto punches.

Best of luck with your staking set adventures.

[tomcolson]

I really need to proof my posts more thoroughly before I post them...

The shank diameter of K&D stakes is No. 12 Stubs' wire gauge. (0.185", 4.71mm)

I hope that's the only completely wrong part my previous post.

[TimFitz]

Thanks Tom for your very useful information.

[Halvis]

Bob, I hope you find the site helpful. 
A few years ago, Tom Adelstein created a stake compatibility list and posted it on his site http://www.american-globe-tools.com/. He's in between ISPs right now, so you can't download any of his reference files. I've attached a pdf of his list here.
AdelsteinCross-over-punches.pdf

So does this mean that modern Bergeon punches are compatible with the K&D staking sets?

[tomcolson]

That's the implication of the presence of both columns in the cross reference, but I've not personally verified that this is the case.

[Tuvia]

Not wanting to start a new thread so I'm attaching my question to this one,

I purchased a Moseley staking set and I'm missing a few punches. I reached out to Daves Watch Parts and am awaiting a reply.

After all the above, I'm still unclear if punches from a different brand would fit in mine, or do I need to hunt down Moseley only?

I'm missing the following, A13, B6, E5, H2, I3, K2 and M4. otherwise I think I did pretty good with the 100/25 set at 100 bucks. 

Edited January 28, 2021 by Tuvia

[MechanicMike]

17 hours ago, Tuvia said:

Not wanting to start a new thread so I'm attaching my question to this one,

I purchased a Moseley staking set and I'm missing a few punches. I reached out to Daves Watch Parts and am awaiting a reply.

After all the above, I'm still unclear if punches from a different brand would fit in mine, or do I need to hunt down Moseley only?

I'm missing the following, A13, B6, E5, H2, I3, K2 and M4. otherwise I think I did pretty good with the 100/25 set at 100 bucks. 

I have a complete Marshall set and I've mic'ed K&D, Marshall, Bergeon and Boley stakes and they all mic to 4.71-4.76 mm, so my guess is that MIGHT be the same across the board? Now just cuz I said that a rogue staking kit will be revealed to mic at something different. You watch. 

[MechanicMike]

Just now, MechanicMike said:

I have a complete Marshall set and I've mic'ed K&D, Marshall, Bergeon and Boley stakes and they all mic to 4.71-4.76 mm, so my guess is that MIGHT be the same across the board? Now just cuz I said that a rogue staking kit will be revealed to mic at something different. You watch. 

And some Lufkin stakes too. 4.7 mm.