Opinions Please

[ramrod]

it's nice that there is no shortage of opinions on this forum. and it's also nice that it's all very civil. i blame it on you brits. LOL

anyway, here's the topic that i've been mulling over for a while.

say, hypothetically that you could purchase all NOS parts to build, say, an omega speedmaster. all of the parts are stock and correct, dial, hands, glass, gaskets, case,....all NOS parts. you purchase the correct movement (used or new), you put it together and have a running watch. it has all of the correct parts. it has exactly the same pieces that omega put into their watch.

 

the question is: do you in fact have a speedmaster if the factory didn't build it? should it be represented as a speedmaster?

this can apply to the watch of your choice.

 

part of the reason i ask is that i've noticed an explosion of NOS parts for some pretty high grade watches. they can be collected and assembled. all you need is to purchase the movement.

i have moved in that direction with a couple of watches i want to build.

as an aside, i would be completely up front with anyone who admired it and inquired about it.

i just wondered what you guys think.

[matabog]

...a horse is a horse is a horse... chinese horse, swiss horse... 

 

If those NOS parts are genuine swiss parts then it is a speedmaster what you get. What if you had it repaired and the watchrepairer had used genuine swiss parts, would it have made the watch less of a speedmaster?

 

Then again if you had a speedmaster and you couldn't find a genuine part and had used a chinese copy part that fit and worked.... would it make the watch less of a speedmaster?

 

 

Bogdan

[stroppy]

Hmmm...  I've read that Swiss firms have come across boxes of old movements and decided to recase them in new style cases.  Does that make them new/old watches?  IMHO, no...it makes them new watches.  If the movements were pristine and in packaging then once they are cased that makes a new watch.

 

If you have used genuine parts as much as possible and have used the right case, etc...then it is that watch, whether a factory worker assembled it or you did.  If I rebuilt an old car from a wrecked body and used genuine parts I'd end up with a newly restored version of the original.

[Alaskamick]

If you wanted to buy a full set of parts for an omega they would cost you more than buying a new one in the first place.

 

Also you can no longer buy genuine part from Omega.

 

If you fitted generic parts they wouldn't have the correct serial no's stamped on them. If they did it would be forgery.

 

Whatever you did you would end up with a fake watch which is ok if you want to wear it but no good for passing of as genuine and just not worth thinking about in my opinion.

[WillFly]

I think we're talking about slightly different points on a spectrum here. Of course there's a big difference between buying a complete set of individual, new watch parts (if available) and repairing a watch with genuine manufacturer's parts. However, a major factor in this hypothetical question is the make. An Omega Speedmaster is one thing - other manufactures are other things. I have several individually branded watches - very nice watches - all with the same movement in them. Most have serial numbers - some don't, just the movement code such as ETA 1100. It wouldn't really make much difference if I combined several ETA 1100 parts from different watches into one fully workable ETA 1100 movement. I've actually done this, to some extent, with three Unitas 173 movements in order to get two of them working again. You wouldn't know the difference. (The Unitas watches are WW2 military issue).

 

So - OK with Unitas 173, but probably not with Omega Speedmasters. Horses for courses. The more refined and expensive the make, the more checks and balances may come into play.

[ramrod]

the omega was just a high end example. so,how about a hamilton khaki? it's not quite as prestigious as an omega, but high end nonetheless. those can be had in NOS cases, dials and hands. you just need the movement.

or, an oris big pointer. same thing.

i can see that collectors are either rubbing their hands together, because they easily can get a full watch for short money.....or they're staying up at night because they could be buying a complete NOS watch at full price.

[WillFly]

Well, a Hamilton Khaki would use a standard Swiss ETA movement. My Hamilton Khaki Mechanical Field Officer's Watch (stupid name, really) has an ETA 6497 - nice quality, but nothing out of the ordinary. So - in theory - no problem. BUT - and here's the interesting point: if you look at my watch's case back:

 

http://www.willswatchpages.com/hamilton-6497.html

 

you'll see all the data about it there - including the serial number. Now, I've never had the back off to look at the movement, so I've no idea whether that same serial number is stamped on the ETA block or one of the plates. If not, then I could indeed buy a NOS external set of bits and pop in a 6497 to complete the picture. On the other hand, if a Hamilton Khaki has the same s/n on the movement as on the case, then I'm creating a pig in a poke!

 

All shades of grey, really.

[WillFly]

Incidentally, I bought the Hamilton Khaki from a chap on another watch forum for £200, and that was a good buy.

 

For £100 I put together my own 6497-based watch from new, Hong Kong parts - and you can see that here:

 

http://www.willswatchpages.com/custom-6497.html

 

Wot larks!

[ausimax]

So far I have not come across a movement with a serial number on it, the serial No is usually only on the case, I think having serial No's on movements would be a big problem for major manufacturers service departments who quite frequently just swap in a new or reconditioned movement rather than repairing the existing one, That is a large factor in their service charges as they factor in the cost of a new movement even if they don't use it

 

http://www.seiko.com.au/system/files/Seiko%20Service%20Price%20List.pdf

 

Check the major repair definition.

 

 

Max

[matabog]

@WillFly: I believe that number, H696190, if this is the one you are referring to, is the watch model code and not a unique case number like a serial one.

 

Bogdan

[oldhippy]

The first thing I would want to see is the genuine box and guarantee and place of purchase such as a reputable shop. If you can't produce them I would know it was dodgy and I wouldn't part with my money.

[dadistic]

For an art collector, provenance can be very important. It can add considerably to the value and marketability of a piece. Since I see watches evolving to be more pieces of art than the utilitarian devices they used to be, I would think that the same would apply there.

 

So, if you are a "collector", then no, a pile of parts is not the same thing as an item that came from the factory and has a documented history. It's the story of the piece as much as the piece itself that makes it valuable. Luckily, I'm not a collector :-) I like stories, but not enough to pay for them. I'm just interested in the item.

 

In times past, a trademark was also important, as it identified the maker of an item, and an item that you assembled would not be equivalent to the original, because who knows how good of a job you've done? If it's poor, then that will reflect on the maker. You would be guilty of "passing off"

 

Since the modern "branding revolution" , trademarks don't mean squat, they are traded like baseball cards are traded at swap meets, and have nothing to do with who actually made an item or its quality. So, these days, I don't worry much about names. The idea of a "real" this or that is almost meaningless, as this or that name is now a marketing device, and nothing more. I could go on and on about luxury marketing, but I'll spare you all the rant. If having a Hermes handbag makes you fell good or gives you status amongst your peers, go for it! Just don't worry that it's a piece 'o crap that any decent crafter could make :-)

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/12/25/460870534/episode-672-bagging-a-birkin

 

[BeyondWorld]

For me, if everything is new old stock and original, then it's an impossible task to say that it's not originally bought like that and kept mint.

 

However, while omega records are terrible, they start to get alot better after the 60's and I think they'll be able to tell you that the movement isn't for that watch, with the serial number.

[Geo]

So far I have not come across a movement with a serial number on it, the serial No is usually only on the case

You can't have any Omegas then Max, they have the serial number on the movement.

[WillFly]

Every American watch I own - pocket or wrist - has a serial number on one of the movement plates.

[jeffc83]

I must confess, I have built a total of 4 watches out of "old swiss parts" that simply fit together.  As we speak, I am wearing one of them, which has a Crosby face, ETA movement (wind), crown is from a Waltham and the case is from an old army watch with a no name brand on it.  I retrofitted one of them with a brand new movement just for kicks as well. (used a wind up Chinese movement pulled from a fake vintage watch, lol)  I would never sell them as an original but will end up telling the entire story whenever (if) I do sell.  If the person interested in it is no longer interested, oh well, I was honest!  Glad I'm not alone!!!!!!   :)

Edited February 23, 2016 by jeffc83

[digginstony]

I bought an omega case and dial and made a quartz watch from it. Not original parts and rubbish hands so stripped it down and doing it again with better hands and an eta movement. Still a fake and always will be. An Omega has to be assembled by them to be original, in reality and in Law!

Tony

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[digginstony]

Forgot to say, if you buy an Omega that originates from Omega but you replace parts, it's not a fake, it's a repaired Omega!

Tony

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[transporter]

Made with omega parts then its an omega simple, you by a Caterham super 7 in kit form and build it yourself it's a Caterham super 7, how can it be a fake? A fake is made with none original parts to deceive, I prefer to call them reps and yes I have a few it's how I got into watches in the first place.

Anyway if you arent doing it to sell it for a profit ( people want boxes papers etc etc ) then cracking on mate, if I could afford the parts to make an omega id do it, just the satisfaction of making a " highend " watch you self is worth it on its own.

[digginstony]

Omega don't sell their time pieces in kit form. Therefore it's still not an original Omega. I doubt if the parts being sold are genuine. The case and dial I bought look good and even have serial number. Sold as unwanted surplus stock from Omega. What nonsense! Even if you do have an original and repair it and then attempt to sell it "Original mint condition " as opposed to "As original condition " you would be guilty of misrepresentation. Just as if you sold a watch in mint condition and the buyer received the item with a scratch on it. The buyer would be entitled to a refund under the "Sale of goods act 1974." Using that as a standard of presidence. No, sorry the watch is not original as implied. It's a fake. I have a genuine Omega and the only way is to have the manufacturer verify it. Remember also, the more you pay,the more sophisticated the fake can be.

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[Ishima]

This is getting dangerously metaphysical, but my opinion is if you have all original manufacturer made parts then a 3rd party constructing it doesn't invalidate the fact it is what is once constructed, it is an omega seamaster as it matches the exact specifications that define the watch, with all parts originating from the manufacturer that bares its name. 

I suppose I can't say that it's irrelevant or just as good this way, but in my mind it simply can't disqualify it. 
After all, what about servicing? if you had a service done by a non-omega watchmaker on a watch made and constructed originally in the factory, what does that say to it's authenticity?
 

You've just had the watch completely deconstructed and reconstructed anyway. save for the case/bracelet. Can someone who has a high end watch and had it serviced unofficially no longer call their Omega an Omega?or Rolex a Rolex? etc, because in reality 999/1,000 people would never have it enter their mind that their watch is somehow fundamentally a different timepiece now that someone not on that manufacturers pay roll has worked on it.

Admittedly the Rolex crowd are very stringent on having all their official Rolex servicing records and what have you, but you wouldn't have much luck selling them on the idea that those Rolex watches repaired unofficially are not Rolex.  

As an end note I'm reminded of the paradox, "If you have a boat and replace one board from it every year until decades later every board has been replaced, do you still have the same boat?"

Edited February 24, 2016 by Ishima

[ramrod]

that's a great analogy. i gotta remember that one.

 

you could slow that down and analyze it this way: suppose you had a watch that you were restoring, say, a hamilton khaki again. all of the parts are there, but they're just tired. how far do you go with replacing parts until it's no longer original? if all of the parts that were replaced were NOS parts, you still have a khaki, don't you?

at what point in the parts replacement does it pass from original....to restored....to restored original? or replica? or NOS? and what if you didn't do the work but had a watchmaker do it? does it matter?

i really want to "make" (or, rather assemble) one of those nice watches, it would suck if it were a source of pride but looked down on because it is all NOS. not that THAT would stop me.

[transporter]

I can't get my head around the idea that a watch made up of denuine parts but assembled outside "the factory" is a fake. Let's say for arguments sake that a number of or movement plates with serial numbers were sold on to the open market and you then purchased the rest of the movement etc piece meal over time and made the watch.

Now remeber the factory legally sold those serialised movement plates to the open market, they would keep records of such a transaction, then surely an authorised dealer would have the means to verify the originality of the watch and know that it's an all original omega ( for the sake of this thread ). All be it not made in the factory.

Something made from OE parts is original, its just not shop bought original, it cant be fake as it's all OE, just with no paperwork.

Edited February 24, 2016 by transporter

[Geo]

I agree that if every part is genuine, then the watch is genuine............but worth slightly less.

It's a bit like cars and aircraft, you can get factory built and home built kits, both genuine, but sell for different amounts as complete units.

[digginstony]

Let's be absolutely clear. Omega do not sell parts to the Trade to construct their watches. Any watch constructed in such a away is counterfeit and the parts are probably the same. Geo is spot on when he states that a watch constructed from all original parts is an Omega but is a "Composition " and therefore commands a fraction of the price of an Original. When a watch is repaired with a replacement part it ceases to be original but can be classed as restored to original.

Tony

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