Responsibility In Amateur Watch Repair......?

[Endeavor]

Hello All;

 

Today I experienced a problem while stripping a Seiko watch. I was pulling a tiny watch-hand (seconds) and it fell apart. The top part, the hand or pointer, came off but a bushing stayed stuck on the shaft. Before I pulled, I made 100% sure that I had a good grip underneath the hand.

Further attempts to pull the bushing failed, it was totally stuck, so I stopped. I managed to push the hand/pointer back (and firm) onto the bushing and the damage is (luckily) invisible. Also, in this case, the owner of the watch was fully aware of the risk involved and took full responsibility in case something went wrong......which, to my regret, did. Also, currently, I do not know how I could have done it differently?

My question is for amateur watch makers how to deal with the responsibility if you take on other people's watches? What to do in case the damage was irreversible and replacement parts are not available? Handing the friend, relative or "client" back a bag full of parts ......... and say I'm sorry!?

How does one deal with other people's watches and what agreements are made? Do most have a paper to sign?

Would be nice to hear how other amateur watch repair/makers handle, deal & cope with this problem........

 

Regards: Roland.

Edited February 20, 2016 by Endeavor

[bobm12]

One way is to buy the item new for them and keep the messed up one for further "lab" work...That's one reason I don't take anything I'm not sure I can fix or pay for...even with a paper to sign the relationship with the person will not be the same (most of the time) and your "repair" abilities reputation will definitely take a dip. A bad name in a hobby is nothing unless you are planning to go to the next level, then it matters.

[Alaskamick]

If I'm doing anything for a friend whether it's a new battery or trying to repair it I always say " It's always possible that I can't fix it or something will go wrong and the watch won't be usable".

 

If they accept the risk then I go ahead if not I wouldn't touch it.

 

The price is either zero or we get invited for a meal.

 

I only do jobs for real friends.

 

I've got quite few friends and I do all their batch batteries as a matter of course. Just for pleasure and it keeps me busy in my retirement  :)

 

Mike

[ramrod]

another great thread. this issue directly affects me because a few months ago a friend asked me to see what i could do with his very old Cyma pocketwatch. it would run sporadically and would not set. before i took it, i looked online and found a movement that matched exactly the movement in his watch. i was going to simply switch them out - and he was ok with that. he simply wanted it to run. i replaced a part in the keyless works that was broken, so he could now set it. however the rest ain't so good. the movement was slightly different - the stem wouldn't work and i found out that the balance was bad in the newer movement. i messed with it for a while, never got it to run and finally gave it back to him with my tail between my legs. he was very understandable and no hard feelings. he was out 40 bucks for the movement. i pretty much stay away from the subject of watches when we're around each other.

after that, i make it a point to tell folks as alaskamick does - there is a possibility that it won't work after i'm through.

[Endeavor]

Hej Mike, that's what I did in this case as well. I know my limitations and in-experience. But in the case above, I didn't anticipate this could happen......obviously another lesson learned.

 

Bob, I see your point, in my case the watch and movement are obsolete. It would also become a very expensive hobby if I had to buy new replacement(s) for friend(s), family etc........they may actually queue up if the news would spread :)

 

Even though I made good & clear agreements with my friend, what happened to me today was unforeseen (perhaps S**t happens?) and even though I was able to fix it, it made me think very hard if I would do something like this ever again, hence the question.............. 

Edited February 20, 2016 by Endeavor

[Blacklab]

Its always a risk repairing an old watch (even for the professionals), just make sure you only do repairs for friends, family & that you feel confident of your abilities, only doing the tricky stuff on your own watches. Above all make it absolutely clear that things can occasionally go wrong & if they do go wrong - grovel - a lot... 

[frenchie]

Good topic.

I always tell friends I do watch stuff for, that I will look at their watch, not touch anything, and then tell them what I can do, and the risks involved. I make sure I tell them it's a hobby, not a job. And I stay clear of anything valuable, financially or emotionally (unless they tell me they'll just chuck it if I don't look at it).

The other thing is, most people just need a new battery, and that's often easy enough to do. I've had a couple other watches to look at, including oldies, with rust and all. I take pictures before I do anything, show them to owner, tell them what I can try to do, and tell them the risks. Then if they're still OK with it, I move forward. If I fix it, they are delighted ! If they think it's too risky, I put it back together and give it back to them.

[Endeavor]

Referring to Bob's remark "I don't take anything I'm not sure I can fix or pay" and Frenchie (pulled out of context regarding the risk involved) "tell them what I can do"

Knowing that pulling / placing hands is tricky, I warned the owner about the risk, but I actually thought (I hadn't experienced any problems with other watches before) it was within the reach of my capabilities.

Being a novice in watch repair, I first made sure that I had the full service manual, the "right" (but still the all-round)-tools and before I removed any component, I looked at the manual and studied how it was placed and how to remove it. With the Seiko I don't have the idea / feeling that I went beyond my capabilities, that is to say; I didn't do anything I wasn't sure off that I did the right thing. Then the unexpected happened.

The only thing I can think off, to possibly avoid my mishap, is perhaps that Seiko has a very specific hands-puller for this particular hand, but no mention or reference was made to it in the manual. Still, even with a very specific puller, the bushing would have been extremely tight.

Surely, the unexpected and unforeseen must happen to other people, even experienced; you think you can handle it, but then the unexpected/unforeseen happens; fixable or not.

What I'm trying to say is that for me the lesson learned is that I can only warn people about all the risk involved, that I may ruin their watch forever and they may never see it again (or securely sealed in a little coffin :) ), but to judge on beforehand that I can fix it or it's within my capabilities......that is surely not for me anymore and I don't know what that would take either....... years of experience / education, cupboards full of parts and a shed full of machinery.........?

That I took Bob's and Frenchie's remarks is by no means, in any shape or form meant in a negative way ! I'm just trying to distill my thoughts and learn from what is being said. I'm very thankful for their valuable contributions and experiences. Hope no offense is taken ;)

I would welcome very much any further thoughts...........

 

Roland.

[bobm12]

Hi Roland, sorry if my remark seemed harsh. I was just trying to be concise! It wasn't intended that way. We all sometimes feel confident with what repairs we take and everything goes left...that's Murphy's law. When I said what I said, I was referring to a possible unforeseen damage or defect I would uncover during the course of my repair. Sometimes things may go beyond every foreseeable possibility and then we need to be prepared to reimburse for/buy the watch and/or replaced it. So, if the watch is irreplaceable, I don't take it......

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

[Endeavor]

No Bob, I didn't take it personal whatsoever and it didn't came across harsh either ;)

I think it is a very noble point of view / stand you are taking and it takes courage / high sense of responsibility to do so. Nothing but respect !

I'm very thankful that I had this experience so early in my new hobby, it made me very humble. Just trying to find out how to proceed, or just stick to my own watches, which are only a few and they had already (as learning objects) multiple services in the last month. They now seem to shy away from me if I look at them :)

At the moment I feel & like what Frenchie said: "unless they tell me they'll just chuck it if I don't look at it". Is such case, only a gain can be made.

As for the Seiko, the damage to the small hand is for the naked eye invisible and once I replaced the worn oscillating weight bridge/bearing, capacitor and two worn wheels, it goes back to the owner. The owner is informed about the incident and seems still very happy that I took the time & effort to look at his watch and replace the worn parts. Hopefully the story ends with a smile and the watch will perform well for many years to come, but it will certainly makes me think twice in case another friend / family watch turns up.

I hope that, combined with forum members experiences/stories/ideas, I'll have a clear view of where I stand, what the risk are, my responsibility or which responsibilities I'm prepared to take on.

To me all a part of the learning curve ;)

Edited February 21, 2016 by Endeavor

[oldhippy]

Never had that problem as the shop I worked in had insurance and when I went out on my own I just took insurance cover, but I was never an amateur as I made a good living, I even had to have a safe.

[ausimax]

To keep the tools in? :D

[oldhippy]

To keep the tools in? :D

Very good.

[bobm12]

Roland, for next time, I believe this will help. Here is the picture of the tools I use for the hands:

 

They come in different sizes to use in the appropriate hand size. I've found that sometimes the Presto type tool doesn't do the job as well as those. The trick is to grab completely under the hand and pivot both levers evenly. Now, the good quality tools will prevent -- in most cases -- some mishaps to happen but remember Murphy's law. You might want to give the above type of tools a try. Mine, I dressed them with a very fine finish so they slide easily. Their geometry at the tip is very important.

 

I think you are doing great and shouldn't think much of the incident other than gained experience. Most important, don't let it dent your confidence in what you are doing. I would actually be happy in your place because you could solve the problem in the end: that's more than one learning experience in one shot.

 

As far as the others comments, they are all good. It just depends how deep into watchmaking we want to go, like for example, insurance is a great idea but for a hobby it might not be very practical...I think it is a matter of volume and profit mostly. The idea is tempting though and probably necessary if working in very expensive watches.

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

[Endeavor]

Hi Bob! Thank you for the "pep-talk", highly appreciated :)

Even though I fully agree that quality tools do the job a whole lot better than my "El-cheapo's, in this case you would have needed 1mm wide or so.

 

 

The hand in question is the red one, top right (it shows how many minutes the stopwatch has run). As you can see it is even situated a "level down", which made it very hard to get to. The top part of the hand was more or less flush with the "top" of the dial. Also, if you look close, you can see that whole hand consist out of two pieces, the red hand and a center bushing. It was for me indeed the most difficult hand I worked on up till that point. They are extremely thin. Of course, then there is the risk of scratching the dial. Normal plastic from a zip-back was far too thick, I had to use kitchen cling-film to get just underneath.

 

No, an insurance is out of the question. I'm not in it for profit and I have no intentions to get to any kind of professional level.

 

Anyhow, I didn't get that discouraged.......played whole day with my Rolex, adjusting the beat error :)

 

 

[stroppy]

Well, if you are a professional in a shop and you choose to take on a job then it's your responsibility to fix the watch or have someone fix it to the customer's satisfaction.  Either that or return the watch in good faith saying that you cannot fix the error it has.

 

In fixing stuff for friends it's a whole other ballgame.  You make it clear at the outset that you will do what you can but if something goes wrong there's a risk of further damage or that a repair cannot be done.  If the owner accepts those conditions, fine and dandy.  If not, return the watch and say, "Out of my league, chum."

[WileyDave]

Well, if you are a professional in a shop and you choose to take on a job then it's your responsibility to fix the watch or have someone fix it to the customer's satisfaction.  Either that or return the watch in good faith saying that you cannot fix the error it has.

 

In fixing stuff for friends it's a whole other ballgame.  You make it clear at the outset that you will do what you can but if something goes wrong there's a risk of further damage or that a repair cannot be done.  If the owner accepts those conditions, fine and dandy.  If not, return the watch and say, "Out of my league, chum."

Agreed Stroppy,

I do quartz replace for friends and family and make it clear up front what my capabilities are. for example did a Tag knock off with decent ronda chrono movement, (replaced entire movement), charged a case of my fav bev (~$15), then the friend sat around and helped me drink a few! That's a win win, For him...