Setting A Watch In Beat - 7S26 Seiko

[NIMISEIK]

Hi

I saw the youtube about

"Setting a watch in beat - watch repair regulating lessons"

Great video. What I don't get is: How do I see the banking pins and the impulse jewel ? do I have to take some parts apart?

Thanks

[rogart63]

In able to see the impulse jewel you have to take the balance bridge with the balance of . Turning it upside down.

Now i now which video you are thinking about? Seen that to. You mean the one where you line everything up looking down though the movement. I think that is more to set everything up when servicing the watch? And maybe changing the balance staff or wheel? You will need to set the beat and timing afterwards with a Timegrapher anyway? 

[NIMISEIK]

In able to see the impulse jewel you have to take the balance bridge with the balance of . Turning it upside down.

Now i now which video you are thinking about? Seen that to. You mean the one where you line everything up looking down though the movement. I think that is more to set everything up when servicing the watch? And maybe changing the balance staff or wheel? You will need to set the beat and timing afterwards with a Timegrapher anyway? 

Thanks.

This is the video:

you can see there the banking pins and the impulse jewel...

[jdm]

Hi

I saw the youtube about

"Setting a watch in beat - watch repair regulating lessons"

Great video. What I don't get is: How do I see the banking pins and the impulse jewel ? do I have to take some parts apart?

As mentioned. Realistically you can't set beat without a timegrapher.

[NIMISEIK]

As mentioned. Realistically you can't set beat without a timegrapher.

Yes. I understend it. But still... how do i get the view of the banking pins as in the photage??.

[jdm]

Yes. I understend it. But still... how do i get the view of the banking pins as in the photage??.

 

7S26 and family do not have banking pins. For the sake of simplicity they are replaced by shoulders on the main plate. 

[JohnR725]

So for putting a watch in beat at least what you're supposed to see I've attached some images. There's a drawing showing what you're trying to achieve pallet fork between the banking pins. Then images from other watches where you can see the pallet fork and the banking pins. As far as seeing the roller jewel that is almost impossible except in the one photograph which has no hairspring. The roller jewel is so close to the center the of balance the hairspring covers it up normally unless you can look in a sideways angle your almost never going to see it.

 

Then for Seiko watches the problem is there just isn't enough space to look in. Then there's a picture of the movement of the 7S26. Which is quite common with a lot of the Seiko's there just isn't any room to look. Then there's the other problem there's nothing to look at there is no banking pins. On a lot of modern watches banking pins have been replaced either with the pallet fork bridge machined to serve the purpose of banking pins or the main plate. So as you can see from the picture of the balance wheel removed and just the fork there is no way to visually see this at all from any angle. This is where you absolutely have to have a timing machine.

[NIMISEIK]

Wow JohnR725!!

Thanks for your answer! it is very helpful.

I ​appreciate it, 

Thanks you all

Nimi

[steven]

Nimi, you can try this. I've done some experiments on this today.

Push the beat corrector all the way to the side of the balance cock. Then stop the balance wheel.

A. Slowly push the balance wheel anti-clockwise but stop right before it swing.

B. The slowly push the beat corrector anti-clockwise until the balance wheel starts to swing. That position is within 0-5 beat error in my experiments.

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Edited December 25, 2015 by steven

[NIMISEIK]

Thanks Steven

The problem is that I don't have timegrapher and it is not

a common device here and not an easy find...

[steven]

Nimi, you don't need a timegrapher to use the method which I experimented. The timegrapher pic is to show that the method can help to set the beat error to within acceptable range of 0-5.

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[NIMISEIK]

Thanks Steven

But I mast be sure I understand you completely...

What do you mean by "...push the balance wheel anti-clockwise but stop right before it swing" ?

If I touch the balance wheel (in order to push it) how can it swing? i"m not sure i get what you mean here...

 

Secondly, do you mean 0-5 m/s ??

 

Nimi

[JohnR725]

Timing machines may seem unrealistically priced especially for hobbyists but they've dropped considerably thanks to the Chinese. I remember as a student in school seeing a timing machine in a material house and I assume the price was a joke. I probably had a little different point of view as I had come from electronics background and I a nice oscilloscope would cost compared to a electromechanical device that spits out paper tape it seems extremely unrealistic on pricing. On the other hand that timing machine would probably last a watchmaker 30+ years. Then today I think the cheapest Swiss machine is at least $3000 versus 300 or less for a reasonably decent Chinese machine. So price doesn't really seem that bad except.

 

So the exception is unfortunately watch repair is very tool intensive. Lots of specialized tools that you almost never use but possessing  is really really nice. So timing machine may not be on the front of your list probably on the second page perhaps. So this means the link below a little work some software and you have a nice timing machine.

 

So what is acceptable beat error for watch? I'm going to look at this a little differently Chinese timing machines the internal programming seems to break into two separate categories. The machines that try to emulate at least on specifications of timing Witschi. In other words for beat error 0 to 9.9 milliseconds. Then the other machines are 0 to 4 ms. So the perception of the Chinese was that this was the worst-case scenario of a modern wristwatch. So going to 5 ms is outside of acceptable range of some of the Chinese timing machines. I think that's a definite indication five is unacceptable. So I think a more acceptable range is 0 to 2 milliseconds

 

Then the problem with a floating stud is great for putting the watch in beat. But some watches are extremely sensitive to movement so sensitive it's better if you can visually be close before even going on the machine because otherwise you spend time pushing it back and forth trying to get it even into range. So if you haven't played with your stud unless you have some reason to without a timing machine just leave it alone. On the other hand if you have a timing machine we can try out this new method and see how well it really works. It's always important not to be closed mind there could be some nifty new method for doing things.

 

http://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/3002-d-i-y-watch-timing-machine/

 

http://www.witschi.com/assets/files/sheets/Witschi%20Training%20Course.pdf

[jdm]

 Then today I think the cheapest Swiss machine is at least $3000 versus 300 or less for a reasonably decent Chinese machine. 

The cheapest (Mod. 1000 knock-off) is actually $150. And they collaborate on customs value, which is an issue for many countries.

The alternative is using an application, surprisingly many smartphone microphones are good enough.

[steven]

Thanks Steven

But I mast be sure I understand you completely...

What do you mean by "...push the balance wheel anti-clockwise but stop right before it swing" ?

If I touch the balance wheel (in order to push it) how can it swing? i"m not sure i get what you mean here...

Secondly, do you mean 0-5 m/s ??

Nimi

This method is tested on a new Seiko 7S26. The factory setting is usually with bigger beat error.

After pushing the beat corrector to the end, stop the balance wheel. There is a tiny free space where the balance wheel won't swing. This free space is the locking position of the pallet jewel with escape wheel.

We want to place the pallet jewel to the very edge of the locking position by moving the balance wheel slightly. So there are two sides but the anti-clockwise side is more accurate in my experiment. If we move the balance wheel too much, it will start to swing. Stop it and try again. You'll get a sense of the very edge position after a few tries.

After that, slowly push the beat corrector until the balance wheel starts to swing. Again, you may try this a few times to get a sense of the best position.

In my three tries, I got readings of 0.1ms, 0.2ms and even a perfect 0.0ms. That's why I said 0.0ms to 0.5ms (0-5) in my previous post. Sorry, it's a typo in my previous post. It should be 0-0.5

I hope I've put it clearly now but if there's still any confusion, I'll try to clarify it. Cheers.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Edited December 26, 2015 by steven

[steven]

Then the problem with a floating stud is great for putting the watch in beat. But some watches are extremely sensitive to movement so sensitive it's better if you can visually be close before even going on the machine because otherwise you spend time pushing it back and forth trying to get it even into range.

I've indeed encountered some movements where I pushed the beat corrector stud back and forth a few times but failed to get into range. So I'll just stop the balance wheel and push the stud slowly until it starts to swing. Then put it on the timegrapher for the fine adjustment.

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[NIMISEIK]

The cheapest (Mod. 1000 knock-off) is actually $150. And they collaborate on customs value, which is an issue for many countries.

The alternative is using an application, surprisingly many smartphone microphones are good enough.

 Can you recommend on an application for smartphone ?

 

JohnR725, 

Thanks for your educational answer, I appreciate it.

 

Steven

I"m still not sure about the meaning of moving the balance wheel...

Is it a possible for you to make a short photage explaining it?

 

Thanks

[jdm]

 Can you recommend on an application for smartphone ?

 

Nope, but should be difficult to try them all.

I use a physical machine and that is my recommendation.

Edited December 26, 2015 by jdm

[nad]

I've got a copy of Tickoprint but have nothing to compare it against so can't comment on how accurate it is when compared to a dedicated machine.

Planning to get a Chinese clone in the future as I progress.

Review by the Watchguy :-

http://watchguy.co.uk/review-tickoprint-android-app/

[jdm]

Nope, but should be difficult to try them all.

Sorry, I meant not difficult.

[NIMISEIK]

Thanks guys

[NIMISEIK]

Nimi, you can try this. I've done some experiments on this today.

Push the beat corrector all the way to the side of the balance cock. Then stop the balance wheel.

A. Slowly push the balance wheel anti-clockwise but stop right before it swing.

B. The slowly push the beat corrector anti-clockwise until the balance wheel starts to swing. That position is within 0-5 beat error in my experiments.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Steven

I took the risk and did it manually....

Now the watch is working ok' some -1s a day 

Thanks

[jdrichard]

To time your watch you can use a tablet and a software based app. TICOPRINT is a time grapher that runs on an android tablet. Then you take a set of earbuds with a mic for telephone calls and you can cut off the non mic side of the earbuds and cut the mic side off above the mic. Now you have a very sensitive mic that you can place on the watch. No go buy yourself two small beanbags and place the watch on one with the mic on the back side and the second beanbag on the mic and watch to top it off. This will pick up the audio really well. Now use ticoprint as instructed by the SW vendor. Voila

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[JohnR725]

I was looking at my Seiko 7s26 and wondering why it was so hopelessly out of beat? But then I realized I was playing with it for this discussion. I had left it at the extreme end  practically touching the balance bridge and pondering why it didn't want to go in beat? Then when I had the balance out it dawned on me there is another way to put it in beat without a timing machine. So the drawing that I previously used now flipped upside down to correspond to the image of the balance of the watch. So we can't see any of the usual references but we can see part of the balance arm. The roller jewel is the same as what's in the drawing it's dead center so by just visually moving the stud and looking at the arm until it appeared to be parallel the same as in the drawing it is now 0.4 ms on the timing machine. Then you can also see the pallet stones resting on the to the escape wheel the same as in the drawing just on the other side of the fork.

[canwdarose]

Interesting, but over my head, so I searched this out.  Sorry if its a repeat of a previous post/thread, but its new to me, and the graphics make sense to someone new to the terms and components of mechanical watches.

 

http://www.witschi.com/assets/files/sheets/Test%20and%20measuring%20technology%20mechanical%20watches.pdf