Sanity check of my first foray into parts cleaning

[Bill2024]

So I have been looking around at the many articles/videos on cleaning watch parts and it seems to get more confusing as time goes on - there seem to be so many options! Rather than procrastinate any longer I have tried to home-in on something that will get me started.

Sorry for the long post but I'd appreciate any thoughts on whether I'm on the right track please.

1) I saw a hand powered rotating cleaning machine on watchrepairtutorials called "Chrono clean". It seems like a good idea to get started and is relatively low cost - shipping from the usa is pricey though. You can turn a handle to rotate the basket in the solution and move the unit from one jar to the next containing various washing/rinsing solutions. It is supplied with a mesh basket of the same type used in cleaning machines.

2) I will be looking to get a small (maybe 3 litre) ultrasonic machine for cleaning cases/bracelets etc. The go-to solution for use in these machine seems to be the Elma red 9:1. Sound right?

3) Washing solution - I'm going to try the L&R #111 ultrasonic cleaning solution - I believe this can be used in both ultrasonic and non-ultrasonic cleaners?

4) Rinsing - I intend to use three jars with the L&R #3 rinse - again this seems to say it can be used in ultrasonic and non-ultrasonic cleaners. 

5)   Pre-cleaning - I was thinking about using the L&R #111 in a petri dish to soak the plates and then brush and peg out the jewels. Is that OK or should I be using a different product for this?

6) Balance and pallet fork cleaning - I was thinking about washing and rinsing these with the other parts in L&R first. But then I think I need to remove the balance jewels and clean the balance and the jewels separately in one-dip. Is that the right thing to do?
Is the pallet fork too delicate for the spinning wash/rinse and should only be manually cleaned in one-dip?
I've seen other, cheaper, solvents used for this. e.g. Hexane. Is that the way to go?

7) Drying - I don't really have a solution for this but I have seen people using hair dryers, food dehydrators etc. I'd appreciate any recommendations.

Any observations on the above much appreciated.

Thanks, Bill

[tomh207]

I’ll put tuppence in Bill

1) the hand cranked one is one of these with a basket. https://www.kilnerjar.co.uk/0025348-butter-churner/?srsltid=AfmBOoqTAH4M4c4gG5Q1Xe2NA-rCMouh_I4ZU6qxLAQRVfPgYke_YVF0
 

you would need some more jars no matter what, 1 cleaner, 2 rinse and 1 spin off.

 

2, 3 and 4) there are a lot of folk using small jars, again 1 cleaner, 2 rinse in a ultrasonic. I use Elma 1:9 for the wash and Elma suprol pro this way and got good results but I am pretty keen on a manual pre cleaning to save the chemicals and do the best job I can. I use the ultrasonic with dish soap and water for cases and bracelets,(tools too) followed by a quick dip in 99.9% IPA and into a cheap dehydrator to dry, same drying for the movement.

5 for precleaning I use lighter fluid

6 for balance and pallet/lever I use horosolv, there are a few options, essence of renata if your in the UK, some folks use hexane.

7) I use a food dehydrator, controllable, cheap and you can get a lot in one if you’re cleaning tools in the ultrasonic. Gentler than a hair drier with a more even heat

 

Tom

 

 

[Bill2024]

1 hour ago, tomh207 said:

1) the hand cranked one is one of these with a basket. https://www.kilnerjar.co.uk/0025348-butter-churner/?srsltid=AfmBOoqTAH4M4c4gG5Q1Xe2NA-rCMouh_I4ZU6qxLAQRVfPgYke_YVF0
 

you would need some more jars no matter what, 1 cleaner, 2 rinse and 1 spin off.

Thanks Tom. Its remarkably similar to the project you highlighted: https://markingtime.com/chrono-clean (I have no affiliation with this product). I've been looking around to find the equivalent mason jars in the UK and I think I have found some on Amazon.

1 hour ago, tomh207 said:

2, 3 and 4) there are a lot of folk using small jars, again 1 cleaner, 2 rinse in a ultrasonic. I use Elma 1:9 for the wash and Elma suprol pro this way and got good results but I am pretty keen on a manual pre cleaning to save the chemicals and do the best job I can. I use the ultrasonic with dish soap and water for cases and bracelets,(tools too) followed by a quick dip in 99.9% IPA and into a cheap dehydrator to dry, same drying for the movement.

Interesting - I might end up using the ultrasonic for everything eventually (parts and cases etc.) but wanted to try something with the rotating baskets before I get my ultrasonic.

 

1 hour ago, tomh207 said:

6 for balance and pallet/lever I use horosolv, there are a few options, essence of renata if your in the UK, some folks use hexane.

Thanks - yes essence of renata looks like the way to go.

 

1 hour ago, tomh207 said:

5 for precleaning I use lighter fluid

Do you then rinse in something before going into the cleaning solutions or just blow dry the parts before cleaning?

 

1 hour ago, tomh207 said:

7) I use a food dehydrator, controllable, cheap and you can get a lot in one if you’re cleaning tools in the ultrasonic. Gentler than a hair drier with a more even heat

I'll try that I think - seem to be low cost and easy to use as well as having a good capacity.

[tomh207]

For 5 I don’t do an extra rinse just make sure I brush the parts thoroughly whilst still in the fluid, if especially dirty I change out the fluid and give it another clean though that is not usual. I usually do keyless works last as that is where you get the sticky stuff like moly one dx. I just let the parts dry on watchmaker paper and into the cleaning jar.

 

Tom

[eccentric59]

Just like skinning a cat, there are multiple ways to achieve the same goal. For the record, I have never skinned a cat, nor have I ever seen it done, though I'm not entirely opposed to the idea.  But I digress ...

Let's talk more theory than process for the moment. The purpose of cleaning watch parts is to remove anything that is not metal, mineral (jewels) or plastic and return them to a state of the least possible friction when reassembled. What's most likely to be found on said parts is lubricants that have been saturated with dirt, oxides like rust, organic material like exfoliated skin cells, lipid remnants and minerals found in sweat (and other byproducts of life that are equally disgusting), and microscopic metal shards from the effects of friction. 

The question is how to do this thoroughly, quickly and cheaply. The answer is ... pick any two. The concept of a cleaning machine is not necessarily to clean parts better, but to free up the watchmaker's valuable time, which to a professional, is money. To a hobbyist such as ourselves the process is the enjoyment so if it takes a little longer, that's all the better. There are other things in life that are more enjoyable the longer it takes according to my wife, but we won't go there.

So, you have to ask yourself, what's the goal? To get the parts as clean as possible so the result is a tiny mechanical device that runs like a ... um ... what's another analogy for the proverbial "Swiss watch"? ;). Or perhaps it's to get the watch looking its best so that it sparkles and shines when you wave it under disinterested noses. Or maybe it's just a cosplay of Heinrich the master watchmaker in a lab coat, wearing a loupe and surrounded by weird looking tools that only the initiated will recognize. 

You can get good results with a little naptha, alcohol, pegwood and a brush. It requires each part to be handled individually and inspected carefully, but for just a few drachmas, or whatever is your currency of choice, you only have to spend a few hours squinting into a jar of volatile organic compounds. 

Or you can sell a kidney and a lung on the black market and buy all sorts of computerized machines and single-purpose chemicals for a result that may only be marginally better just to restore a watch that originally sold for $39.95 at Woolworths.

The dirtier the parts are, the more pre-cleaning is essential. If you just drop them into your machine (whether hand-cranked or powered by a turboencabulator) the cleaning chemicals will become contaminated quickly and leave a residue of schmutz all over the parts, requiring a second (or third) cleaning, or if you go to the rinse jar, your rinse solution will get dirty, too. This just blows through a lot of expensive chemicals, although Elma and L&R think that's a good idea, most environmentalists and those with a disposable income that appears to already have been disposed of do not.

I don't think I'd pre-clean and peg in the L&R solution. You need a solvent to get off the initial gunk and  naptha and a brush will do that just fine. Pegging can be done dry. L&R is an ammoniated cleaner so it will brighten the parts as well as clean them, and yes you can use it in either a spinning basket or ultrasonic.  Your best bet is to PWRRD (Prec-clean, wash, rinse, rinse, dry). For that second rinse I use IPA because it will take away any residual water and it dries faster (technically it evaporates, but in either case it's gone.)

As for drying, the only thing that is necessary is moving air at a temperature greater than ambient. I use a cheap nail dryer (finger nail, not the kind you hammer ... although i have been known to hammer my fingernail, followed by a torrent of expletives). 

[SwissSeiko]

47 minutes ago, eccentric59 said:

turboencabulator

One of my favorite videos. Brings me back to my college days.

[way2wyrd]

1 hour ago, eccentric59 said:

Or maybe it's just a cosplay of Heinrich the master watchmaker in a lab coat, wearing a loupe and surrounded by weird looking tools that only the initiated will recognize. 

This is my choice.  Maybe for Halloween

[eccentric59]

1 hour ago, way2wyrd said:

This is my choice.  Maybe for Halloween

For one person it's a Halloween costume. Two people, it's a consultation. A room full and it becomes a forum.  

[Knebo]

2 hours ago, eccentric59 said:

those with a disposable income that appears to already have been disposed

[Bill2024]

2 hours ago, eccentric59 said:

You can get good results with a little naptha, alcohol, pegwood and a brush. It requires each part to be handled individually and inspected carefully, but for just a few drachmas, or whatever is your currency of choice, you only have to spend a few hours squinting into a jar of volatile organic compounds. 

Or you can sell a kidney and a lung on the black market and buy all sorts of computerized machines and single-purpose chemicals for a result that may only be marginally better just to restore a watch that originally sold for $39.95 at Woolworths.

 

So I think for the pre-cleaning I will use Naptha - in the UK it seems like lighter fluid is the equivalent or, it seems, possible to get a purer version from chemical suppliers for not a bad price.

I'm still tempted to try the L&R route for main cleaning just to see what its like in the hand cranked "machine"; but to be honest everything is new to me at this stage so I just have to start somewhere.

I have to admit that I have set bar pretty low at the moment in terms of restoring anything - I'm currently trying my hand at something that cost me £20 including postage and, like you say, was probably bought for not very much back in the day (or the 1970's in this case); hopefully I will be able to progress to "better" watches in time though.

I do want to prove the point to myself, that I can get the movement bright and sparkly and running like a dream

The case is another matter however, and rather than an ultrasonic cleaner and polishing setup, I think I'm really going to need a magic wand.

[eccentric59]

28 minutes ago, Bill2024 said:

I'm still tempted to try the L&R route for main cleaning just to see what its like in the hand cranked "machine"

I'm not disparaging L&R. I use it myself. It's makes the parts nice and shiny with the proper prep. I just think the cranking part would get old very quickly. I envision something between a butter churn and an ice cream freezer.

The irony is that "better" watches can be much easier to work on. Sharper corners, precision fit components and just overall better materials go back together without the fuss of their lesser counterparts.

46 minutes ago, Bill2024 said:

I think I'm really going to need a magic wand.

You'd be surprised what a little Brasso® and a rag will do for an old case.

 

[tomh207]

@Bill2024 don’t get too caught up in it, you are doing this for fun and enjoyment, don’t stress. As @eccentric59 said there are many way to skin the proverbial cat. Reading some of the well respected books, I am not going to be arseing around with hydrocloric acid or potassium cyanide to fix watches. At the end of the day if you’re not doing this for a profession/to live it matters much less how you achieve your desired result. As a hobbyist you are not on the clock, take that and enjoy it, you will find ways that suit you and your circumstances and take it from there.

 

Tom

[Malocchio]

I use IPA for precleaning. Not a powerful solvent but does the trick with brush. Evaporates fast and doesn't stink.

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, eccentric59 said:

For the record, I have never skinned a cat, nor have I ever seen it done, though I'm not entirely opposed to the idea.  .

Me neither,  unless next door's continues to take a dump in my back garden

[RichardHarris123]

17 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

@Bill2024 don’t get too caught up in it, you are doing this for fun and enjoyment, don’t stress. As @eccentric59 said there are many way to skin the proverbial cat. Reading some of the well respected books, I am not going to be arseing around with hydrocloric acid or potassium cyanide to fix watches. At the end of the day if you’re not doing this for a profession/to live it matters much less how you achieve your desired result. As a hobbyist you are not on the clock, take that and enjoy it, you will find ways that suit you and your circumstances and take it from there.

 

Tom

Excellent advice. Us amateurs are far too hard on ourselves . Enjoy the hobby.  Professionals of course don't have that luxury. 

I used to fish, I  could of been a Professional  but that would of spolt the enjoyment. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, eccentric59 said:

There are other things in life that are more enjoyable the longer it takes according to my wife, but we won't go there.

Really ! nothing springs to mind at the moment , perhaps my memory is starting to fail, must have been something that happened long long ago

[eccentric59]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Really ! nothing springs to mind at the moment , perhaps my memory is starting to fail, must have been something that happened long long ago

I'll have my wife explain it to you. As a matter of fact there's some guy on the internet who keeps emailing me that he has pictures.

[Bill2024]

1 hour ago, tomh207 said:

don’t get too caught up in it, you are doing this for fun and enjoyment, don’t stress

You’re absolutely right, I do this for fun. It can just be frustrating when you don’t know how to do something and there are sooo many options.  

[Neverenoughwatches]

There are so many threads here regarding cleaning machines, modern , traditional and homemade. They all basically do the same thing, some a little better than others,  some in a much more convenient labour saving way. Personally I like the homemade route, up to something like 6 off to date. Designs can be as simple or as complicated as you like, what they all have in common is...having your wallet's best interests in mind. Surprisingly enough starting at around 20 quid, rarely reaching to a 100 for a simple device. Breaking down the actual process of how to clean effectively will help with the design ideas ( rotary ) not just for the driver but also for the baskets used and the containers specifics. Agitation is a big consideration  - clothes in a washing machine don't just go around and around - the brain soon starts to throw out ideas of how to create fluid turbulence, such as the jar and basket shapes, wave breakers, basket impellers, basket speeds, alternating directions. Use one or two at least or all of them as needed. Using an ultrasonic machine requires less thought as to how you are going to get the most from it. My plan was to reduce the barriers between the cleaning cavitations and the parts to be cleaned, to an almost direct action. I managed to get that down to just one barrier. Making a lid to hold the cleaning containers keeps them off the bottom of the tank, this mean the tank holds the water and nothing else, thats one barrier removed , the tank's basket. The cavitations can then act directly on the containers. The next barriers that are normally present in most folks cleaning operation would be the parts baskets and the holder for them. I removed both of those, this is made possible by hanging parts from a small wire made part tree, that is then dangled into the cleaning fluid and slowly rotated to ensure the parts pick up small zones of cavitations.  Its not quite as convenient as popping the parts into baskets but it is something I've got used to doing. I will say with only the one barrier present ( I use thin walled stainless steel cups that transmit the cavitations amazing well ) the cleaning action is insane and you do need to be a bit careful with what parts you clean this way and keep the operation short, 2 mins max, because the parts are getting practically the full force of the cavitations produced. If your machine is already powerful then you might want to add more barriers or use thick wall jars instead of steel cups. An alternative I might use is to float a small steel cup in the container and put the parts and cleaner in that second cup or rotate a small open basket in the cleaning cups. There are so many options to choose and try out, but definitely make a lid to hold your containers over the water tank. We all have ideas and we're all willing to help explain and show how we do things, your budget can be absolutely anything you like.

16 minutes ago, eccentric59 said:

I'll have my wife explain it to you. As a matter of fact there's some guy on the internet who keeps emailing me that he has pictures.

Yeah you do that , it might jog my memory, better still have her ring my missus.  Is he asking for money or else he'll plaster them all over Facebook, cis thats gonna be kind of embarrassing for you isn't it, especially if your mother in-law sees them.

[Bill2024]

3 hours ago, eccentric59 said:

I just think the cranking part would get old very quickly.

Yeah you might be right. At the moment it sounds like it’s worth a try. As @Neverenoughwatches talks about inventing your own ways of doing things; I’m already thinking about ways to try and motorise the hand powered machine! 

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

There are so many threads here regarding cleaning machines, modern , traditional and homemade. They all basically do the same thing, some a little better than others,  some in a much more convenient labour saving way. Personally I like the homemade route, up to something like 6 off to date. Designs can be as simple or as complicated as you like, what they all have in common is...having your wallet's best interests in mind. Surprisingly enough starting at around 20 quid, rarely reaching to a 100 for a simple device. Breaking down the actual process of how to clean effectively will help with the design ideas ( rotary ) not just for the driver but also for the baskets used and the containers specifics. Agitation is a big consideration  - clothes in a washing machine don't just go around and around - the brain soon starts to throw out ideas of how to create fluid turbulence, such as the jar and basket shapes, wave breakers, basket impellers, basket speeds, alternating directions. Use one or two at least or all of them as needed. Using an ultrasonic machine requires less thought as to how you are going to get the most from it. My plan was to reduce the barriers between the cleaning cavitations and the parts to be cleaned, to an almost direct action. I managed to get that down to just one barrier. Making a lid to hold the cleaning containers keeps them off the bottom of the tank, this mean the tank holds the water and nothing else, thats one barrier removed , the tank's basket. The cavitations can then act directly on the containers. The next barriers that are normally present in most folks cleaning operation would be the parts baskets and the holder for them. I removed both of those, this is made possible by hanging parts from a small wire made part tree, that is then dangled into the cleaning fluid and slowly rotated to ensure the parts pick up small zones of cavitations.  Its not quite as convenient as popping the parts into baskets but it is something I've got used to doing. I will say with only the one barrier present ( I use thin walled stainless steel cups that transmit the cavitations amazing well ) the cleaning action is insane and you do need to be a bit careful with what parts you clean this way and keep the operation short, 2 mins max, because the parts are getting practically the full force of the cavitations produced. If your machine is already powerful then you might want to add more barriers or use thick wall jars instead of steel cups. An alternative I might use is to float a small steel cup in the container and put the parts and cleaner in that second cup or rotate a small open basket in the cleaning cups. There are so many options to choose and try out, but definitely make a lid to hold your containers over the water tank. We all have ideas and we're all willing to help explain and show how we do things, your budget can be absolutely anything you like.

1 hour ago, eccentric59 said:

That's really interesting, thanks. I did look at the ultrasonic route and will defo be giving it a try in due course. I've not seen anyone using steel cups in their ultrasonic tanks during my journey down this rabbit-hole; it sounds like a great idea though.

Can I ask what cleaning solutions/rinses you use in the ultrasonic?

[eccentric59]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Is he asking for money or else he'll plaster them all over Facebook, cis thats gonna be kind of embarrassing for you isn't it, especially if your mother in-law sees them.

Yeah, that's the guy. I told him it's cheaper if I just send the pictures to my  mother-in-law directly.  

[Neverenoughwatches]

26 minutes ago, Bill2024 said:

Yeah you might be right. At the moment it sounds like it’s worth a try. As @Neverenoughwatches talks about inventing your own ways of doing things; I’m already thinking about ways to try and motorise the hand powered machine! 

That's really interesting, thanks. I did look at the ultrasonic route and will defo be giving it a try in due course. I've not seen anyone using steel cups in their ultrasonic tanks during my journey down this rabbit-hole; it sounds like a great idea though.

Can I ask what cleaning solutions/rinses you use in the ultrasonic?

I think it was HectorLooi that posted some information at the time that we were discussing what materials to use for cleaning jars in an ultrasonic machine. It was decided that steel jars transmit the cavitation bubbles better than glass or plastic, which was considered the worst as it absorbs their energy. So I've tried a few different cleaning solutions, mostly non-proprietary watch stuff. There is a thread I made last year experimenting , actually I might have tagged it onto someone else's thread,  I can't remember.  Just mirror residue and evaporation rates. Elma pro ammoniated,  paraffin,  ligher fuel , Ipa, meths, and I think break cleaner was in there as well. Elma and paraffin have a very slow evaporation rate, probably days. Both have wetting properties and are far reaching, paraffin being very much so, if you're looking for a deep cleaning solution then paraffin soaks well and finds every nook, cranny and crevice. When I use paraffin which is usually if I hand or US pre clean then i place the parts on absorbant tissue  afterwards to soak up the excess then spin them off and use IPA or break cleaner to rinse them off after that a rotary wash with elma and ipa for rinsing . I don't use a US that much, really just if any wheels and pinion leaves are really gunked up, which is when I hang them on the little wire tree. I kind of base how i will clean by how dirty and gunked up the movement is. If it's bad the procedure will follow : soak in paraffin for a couple of hours, peg out plate and bridges and hand clean what I can with a small brush to remove the bulk. Then onto the USM, some parts that can be hung go on the tree like wheels etc,  others that can't go in a slow rotating mesh basket, all in paraffin, the USM  loosens the crap up . Then put them in a rotary basket, spin them in paraffin, spin off the excess, then in elma then 3 rinses in IPA. That's like the full valet, if the movement is really dirty. The parts that don't get that treatment are the balance complete and the pallet fork, which I really like to clean by hand.  Screws and springs I also won't put in a machine, too easily lost, these are easily cleaned by swishing them in a jar of whatever you fancy . If I get a really stubborn sticky hairspring, that will be removed for cleaning separately, brreak fluid is good for that or tetrachloroethylene.

4 minutes ago, eccentric59 said:

Yeah, that's the guy. I told him it's cheaper if I just send the pictures to my  mother-in-law directly.  

Thats one way to get rid of the mother in-law, at 85 yrs old mine is heart attack territory.........I could accidentally have an envelope with certain contents fall out of my jacket pocket onto her dining room table...accidentally....

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 hours ago, Bill2024 said:

You’re absolutely right, I do this for fun. It can just be frustrating when you don’t know how to do something and there are sooo many options.  

Like so many things about watch repair Bill, your methods will evolve and improve as you hone them towards great efficiency. Having a good starting point though will save you a lot of time and some money. Weighing up how much time or money you want to invest initially ( I love using nice working gear, but more so for me making something " cheap and dirty " thrills me )  depends on how quickly and how much you become passionate about the hobby. I don't think the staying rate is high tbh, we see a lot of folk come and go here, it takes a certain type of person to remain interested. If pockets aren't deep or we dont want to dip into them then we have to get creative, thats a part of the hobby that is just as enjoyable as the watch restoration. 

[RichardHarris123]

23 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I don't think the staying rate is high tbh, we see a lot of folk come and go here, it takes a certain type of person to remain interested

I think you're correct.

[Bill2024]

9 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Like so many things about watch repair Bill, your methods will evolve and improve as you hone them towards great efficiency. Having a good starting point though will save you a lot of time and some money. Weighing up how much time or money you want to invest initially ( I love using nice working gear, but more so for me making something " cheap and dirty " thrills me )  depends on how quickly and how much you become passionate about the hobby. I don't think the staying rate is high tbh, we see a lot of folk come and go here, it takes a certain type of person to remain interested. If pockets aren't deep or we dont want to dip into them then we have to get creative, thats a part of the hobby that is just as enjoyable as the watch restoration. 

Thanks, I think you've hit the nail on the head. I'm currently aiming for a starting point where I can at least attempt most of the things a new hobyist should be having a go at; with movement disassembly/cleaning/lubricating etc. and also replacing crystals, hands, opening/closing cases etc. I'm buying good tools where I can and saving a few quid on the things I may not use that often - time will tell if that proves to be a false economy I guess!