Greiner Motormikrophon ML61 & Chronografic Super

[jcdas]

My son does watch and clock repair on a full time basis. Hallicras Works

A few years ago, someone gave him two Greiner watch timing devices.  I have a background in electronics, but my skills in vacuum tube circuits is a bit rusty.  Finally found some time, motivation, friend to try to get them to work. 

After some minor cleanup, they look to be in good condition.   No obviously failed electronic components.  They must have been expensive machines when new.  They are really well engineered and constructed.

Motormikrophon ML61 . 

We have no manuals, or schematic diagrams for this one.  I've sent requests to Greiner in Switzerland, as well as a Greiner rep in UK, and they don't have any documentation.  I've connected the small coax audio cable from the MotorMikrophon to a Guitar amp, and a PC, and the microphone is working fine.  I can manually press down on the sequencing relays and get the motor to rotate the watch holder /  microphone.  It will not cycle the rotation by itself, regardless of the various switch positions we've tried.  Not sure if it needs a DIN connector on the back to make it operate.  I thought it might be some Resistive/Capacitor charging circuit that might reach a threshold voltage and trip a relay to start a rotation sequence.  But so far, no luck.

Chronografic Super. 

We found a schematic diagram for this one, but no operation manual.  The electronics sing a bit in the various switch positions for different crystal controlled Beat per Hour settings.  The synchronous motor feels like it has a bit of a pull, but will not start to rotate on it's own, or with a nudge.  Not sure if the leaver is used to kick it into operation. With some 'noise' on the microphone input, we can sort of get some hammer pounding noise to mark the paper with dots.

It would be nice to get them working again.  If the Chronografic can't work, I was thinking of connecting the MotorMikrophon to a PC and make some kind of a PC based software to enable watch timing. 

So, my First ask is for some operating or service manuals of any type or language, or any first hand knowledge of how to get them working.

Thanks folks.

[praezis]

ML61:

check the 4uF cap. Voltage on its terminals shall reach 120V, the threshold of the thyratron valve. This will start the motor. With too high internal loss of the cap, this cannot happen.

The unit will sequence through the selected positions by itself, no external control needed.

Start by pulling down the mic!

Frank

Edited February 6 by praezis

[jcdas]

Thanks Frank. 
Do you have a schematic?

[praezis]

Sorry, no.

I only have a 1/2 page manual, but in German. 

Maybe John has an English version? It is included in TM manuals.

Frank

Edited February 6 by praezis

[JohnR725]

On 2/5/2025 at 2:49 PM, jcdas said:

Not sure if the leaver is used to kick it into operation.

don't have anything on the microphone.

 

I don't think I have the manual for the super but I seem to be missing one of my Greiner manuals. I do have a manual for something that looks similar to the cheaper one in the advertisement I found below. One of the problems is Greiner have lots of variations of timing machines.

 

that I thought I could see if I can enhance the readability of the description which does answer a question of unlike the cheaper machine that you have to spin the knob on the right-hand side the start the motor it looks like this one starts and stops if a watches on the microphone. this is a rather handy feature for paper tape machines because occasionally walk away and without it the paper will just keep on feeding until you notice that a lot of paper has now come out in your machine.

 

[praezis]

Motormik description is in the Greiner Micromat manual.

Frank

[jcdas]

On 2/6/2025 at 8:32 AM, praezis said:

ML61:

check the 4uF cap. Voltage on its terminals shall reach 120V, the threshold of the thyratron valve. This will start the motor. With too high internal loss of the cap, this cannot happen.

The unit will sequence through the selected positions by itself, no external control needed.

Start by pulling down the mic!

Frank

Hi Frank.  Thanks for your help.

I  don't have a 4uf cap on hand, so I decided to try to replace the 4uf can electrolytic with a small 10uf, 450vdc cap I had.  I turned it on.  Nothing at first.  Changed the right switch to the right most position labelled 6.  Something got it going.  It cycled about 3x in 1/4 rotations about 1 minute apart.  Then it stopped.  Can't do anything to get it going except by manually tripping a relay.  The bottom neon tubes are glowing.

The voltage on the cap increases and settles at 135 VDC.

So what do the two rotary knobs control?  Left time period 15, 30, 60 (Minuets, Seconds, ?)  Right 2, 3, 3F, 4, 5, 6 - total turns, or parts of a rotation?

Does the device need to have a clock  mounted to hear ticks.  It looked like the microphone wiring does not go to the electronic circuitry.  

What is the DIN connector for ?

 

 

 

[praezis]

Hello,

left: time, seconds, of each position.
If you changed the cap (not electrolytic!) from 4 to 10uF: 2.5x longer!

right: number of positions in one sequence.

Sure you need a watch mounted to hear ticking

DIN connector: don‘t know what it is for.

Frank

 

[jcdas]

So where do I go to find the Greiner Micromat manual.  I googled away, and couldn't find anything.

Any manual in any language would be appreciated.

Is the 4uf Cap, a SINGLE cap, or 2 in one can?

 

 

[JohnR725]

6 minutes ago, jcdas said:

Greiner Micromat manual.  I googled away, and couldn't find anything.

Any manual in any language would be appreciated.

I believe I said there were lots of variations. so for instance you're asking for the Greiner Micromat manual. I'm not attaching it because it has a big file size and I don't like to attach big files to the message board is not a good thing so I have a link. There is a manual for a much newer version that I believe has transistors and integrated circuits.

What makes their timing machine manual interesting is usually the beginning few pages cover a particular machine I don't think I've ever seen a schematic though in these manuals. But they will usually tell you the vacuum tubes etc. then the rest the manual is one of the best manuals I've ever seen on understanding what a timing machine is showing you and basically just understanding how to use the timing machine overall.

http://www.historictimekeepers.com/documents/Micromat.pdf

 

32 minutes ago, jcdas said:

So where do I go to find the Greiner Micromat manual.  I googled away, and couldn't find anything.

the art of googling? Change your search terms may be something better would come up like this. Then hopefully not going to get nitpicky over the language as it doesn't appear to be English but it does have a schematic. then even though the person got a nice PDF we had a whole bunch a images that you'll have to save. Although it does look like the automatic microphone is in the manual

https://forumamontres.forumactif.com/t105003-greiner-super-chronografic-le-mode-d-emploi

 

 

[praezis]

FYI: my ML61 cooperating with PCTM

[praezis]

[jcdas]

Well page 1/6 starts to explain it's operation.  

I typed the German text into Google Translate  (I probably have a few typos, and no special puctuation, but the english seemed reasonable.)

Dieses Gerat hat die Aufgabe, Uhren serienmassig in verchiedenen Lagen zu profen.  Es gehort zum Sonderzubehor und ist auf besonderen Wunsch ehhalich.

Der Mikrophonkorper eines M55 ist auf eine Achse montiert,  die durch einen elektronish gesteuerten Motor angetrieben wird.  Mid dem Schalter A konnen folgende Programe einsetelit werden:This device is designed to test watches in various positions as standard. It is a special accessory and is available on special request.

Der Start des gewahiten Programms erfoigt durch Schwenken des Mikrophonkorpers von Hand aus seiner Ruhelage ZO in die Lage KU.  Die in den einzeinen Stellungen erwunschte Prufzeit kann mit dem Schalter B in Stufen su 30, 45 und 60 Sekunden eingestelit werden.  Vibrationen und Gerausche, welche durch den Motor und das Getriebe wahrend der Schwenk-bewegungen entstehen, wurden als Streupunkte registriert werden. Aus diesem Grund wird das Uhrensignal wahrend dieser Zeit automatisch abgeschaltet.

Das Gerat ist un zwei Ausfuhrungen lieferbar.  Sie unterscheiden sich in der Art der Montage am Arbeitsplatz, die entweder unter der Arbeitsplatte hangend, onder auf ihr stenhend erfolgen kann.  Ein Verbindungskabel fur den Anschluss an das Gerat liegt bei.

and got this.

The microphone body of an M55 is mounted on an axis that is driven by an electronically controlled motor.

The following programs can be set using switch A:

The selected program is started by manually swiveling the microphone body from its rest position ZO to position KU. The test time required in the individual positions can be set with switch B in steps of 30, 45 and 60 seconds. Vibrations and noises caused by the motor and gear during the swivel movements are recorded as stray points. For this reason, the clock signal is automatically switched off during this time.

The device is available in two versions. They differ in the type of installation at the workplace, which can be done either hanging under the worktop or standing on it. A connecting cable for connection to the device is included.

Could I please get the rest of the pages?

I've got the machine to start working. 4uf Cap is on order.  For now using 2x 10uf in series (maybe acting like 5uf).  But sometimes it gets stalled in a position, and the motor won't start.  Just buzzes, or vibrates.

 

https://1drv.ms/f/c/533c9668496b7ad1/Et7Zt_zSKjtOu6NF1o-pEoYBfHTczXTsn52yV9yZin4pFg?e=5zapXH

 

 

 

Thanks.

 

[praezis]

Your translation reads ok.

There are no more pages about ML61. As mentioned before, this page is part of the Greiner Micromat manual.

The movement may stall by mechanical reasons, e.g. worn bearings. You can try nudging the microphone then.

Frank

[jcdas]

PCTM?  Is this a purpose build device, or software on a PC/tablet?

 

[praezis]

2 hours ago, jcdas said:

PCTM?  Is this a purpose build device, or software on a PC/tablet?

PCTM is a software timing machine, used by many professionals.

Link

The shown version for motor microphone however is a special version.

Frank