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2 hours ago, GPrideaux said:

Yes, that's a furphy. If it runs for 12 hours, the centre wheel turns 12 full revolutions. The ratio between barrel and centre wheel is typically about 8:1 so the barrel must turn 1.5 full revolutions in that time. If you're only getting in one or two clicks on the wind the watch can't have been running for the 12 hours. (Unless you have elves who are pranking you by winding the watch just before you get to it.) It must have run for 15 or 20 minutes then stopped. Then perhaps it started up again when you touched it, and you assumed it had been running for the whole time. Dunno, but the centre wheel simply can't turn twelve full revolutions without the corresponding motion of the barrel unless the connection between them fails, and if the connection did fail the watch would lose its only source of power and stop anyway (and the mainspring would unwind all at once, possibly catastrophically).

So, setting that aside, the barrel is the most likely problem, with wear where the arbor interfaces with the barrel and/or lid, or wear between arbor and bridge or mainplate.

Very simple check: with the barrel installed and no wind in the mainspring try tilting the barrel with a pair of tweezers on each side. It should move an almost imperceptible amount due to arbor side shake. If it moves half a degree or more you have a problem. Have a look at this post for an example of excessive side-shake (and also excessive end-shake):

If your barrel looks anything like mine in the video shown there, it needs work!

 

Comparing the side tilt of my barrel to yours, mine has way less, but not none at all. I guess none at all isn't possible though.

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Here is a good video to cover the barrel, if it doesn’t spin on the arbor and rotate with a puff of air this is a great place to start.

 

Tom

 

 

1 minute ago, graemeW said:

Comparing the side tilt of my barrel to yours, mine has way less, but not none at all. I guess none at all isn't possible though.

You do need some side and endshake on all pivots and arbor or everything will just bind up with friction.

Tom

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17 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

Here is a good video to cover the barrel, if it doesn’t spin on the arbor and rotate with a puff of air this is a great place to start.

 

Tom

 

 

This is great, thanks. Loads I can work on and improve here. I hadn't realise the barrel to arbor was such a big deal. Mine can definitely be improved.

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I'm sorry to throw a wrench into your tests, but in my experience any amplitude readings out of that phone app are not reliable whatsoever. Maybe on a perfectly running modern movement they will get close to good results, but on any movement that has operational faults the amplitude numbers will be all over and usually don't make any sense.

If you can visually confirm you are getting somewhere near 180° of balance swing (in each direction) by taking a slow motion video, that will be a better judge in absence of a hardware timegrapher.

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1 hour ago, graemeW said:

Barrel

20250123_161852.thumb.jpg.951d1afab1e52745361c0cc009ccd2f5.jpg

This looks suspicious! 

Is the barrel arbor not sticking out from the barrel? Almost looks like the square bit is inside the barrel. It should be fully out. 

 

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1 hour ago, Knebo said:

This looks suspicious! 

Is the barrel arbor not sticking out from the barrel? Almost looks like the square bit is inside the barrel. It should be fully out. 

 

It's just the angle of the photo

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37 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

The part I thought was missing on the original photo was this part that's worn.

image.thumb.png.33f986f6964ad872a58851c491a34b15.png

It's nowhere near as bad as the lighting makes it look. There is no damage where the barrel lid sits.

I will make sure the surface that meets the main plate is smooth though. Even if it does have some tiny oil reservoir pockets 😉😂

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I polished the arbor and inside the barrel holes. It now spins freely even with a puff of air.

I've put the new spring back in too. I'll lubricate it, close it up, and then strip and clean the rest of the watch again.

I'll inspect it all super closely and take photos of anything I'm not sure is good.

1 hour ago, mbwatch said:

I'm sorry to throw a wrench into your tests, but in my experience any amplitude readings out of that phone app are not reliable whatsoever. Maybe on a perfectly running modern movement they will get close to good results, but on any movement that has operational faults the amplitude numbers will be all over and usually don't make any sense.

If you can visually confirm you are getting somewhere near 180° of balance swing (in each direction) by taking a slow motion video, that will be a better judge in absence of a hardware timegrapher.

I suspected from the very first time I used the app that it was unreliable.

I'll try some slow motion video when it's back together.

The app seems to work enough to give a general idea. The first watch I serviced was a sekonda. Non running when I got it, runs like a champ now. I also did a josmar pin pallet. That runs decent too. The app though, I am not sure i trust the seconds per day. It's ok to get an idea, but then i go by what it's doing in real life. As far as the apps aplitiude goes, sometimes it won't read it at all. It does reasonably well when the watch is running strong though, and that's where I need to get them anyway. 

I will buy a proper timegrapher soon but I'm only into this journey 2 scrap movements and 2 working ones I don't care about. This 1917 watch is the first one I've done that I actually care about. Once I'm more confident I can actually do this hobby, I'll invest more. I'm very used to this kind of work, just not on anything anywhere near this scale!!

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3 hours ago, graemeW said:

Got the big guns out to get as clear a pic of the sligjt barrel wear

20250123_164014.thumb.jpg.b002e637e4ee0f20dec024f4fb5787a6.jpg

Oh I see. It was an optical illusion on the other pic. 

 

3 hours ago, graemeW said:

Barrel without mainspring rotates on the arbor easily enough, bit it doesn't spin, and certainly wouldn't go with a puff of air like the linked video. How free should it be?  

It should spin at least a bit. Ideally from a (well directed) puff of air. 

 

Another thing. 

Do you have a phone that can record slow motion? With a loupe in front of the phone camera, take a video of the balance, as it swings. Maybe something to see there. Also to observe the true amplitude, as I ak also sceptical about the phone app. 

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1 hour ago, Knebo said:

Oh I see. It was an optical illusion on the other pic. 

 

It should spin at least a bit. Ideally from a (well directed) puff of air. 

 

Another thing. 

Do you have a phone that can record slow motion? With a loupe in front of the phone camera, take a video of the balance, as it swings. Maybe something to see there. Also to observe the true amplitude, as I ak also sceptical about the phone app. 

I will try it.

It's all been cleaned again. I was checking the balance too. If I turn it 180 degrees and let go it stops in 25 seconds. I believe that's not very good. Hairspring looks spot on though. 

Only other issue I've found so far, inspecting it as I took it apart, is the roller jewel is not 100% vertical. It's only very slightly off, not sure how much it matters. I'm not hugely fond of the idea of removing it, mainly as I don't have a staking set. Looks tricky to adjust in situ although I probably could if I really tried.

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1 hour ago, graemeW said:

If I turn it 180 degrees and let go it stops in 25 seconds. I believe that's not very good.

It's not great, IF you did the test without the pallet installed. Assuming 18000 beats per day, 25 seconds is 125 beats or about 62 oscillations. You should get 100 or more.

If the pallet was in place when you did the test it means nothing. Either way, this is not the principal issue.

2 hours ago, Knebo said:

With a loupe in front of the phone camera, take a video of the balance, as it swings.

I was going to mention that I recently worked out that I get much better pics with a loupe held in front of the phone camera than trying to shoot down the microscope. I use a 20x loupe, but try with whatever you have.

The roller jewel (or impulse jewel) could be an issue, particularly if it is loose, but this is also not the main issue. Get some clear pics so you can ask the experienced members here about it after you have addressed the main issue.

Nothing in the escapement explains the rapid deterioration you're seeing 20 minutes after winding. That suggests an issue in the train rather than the escapement. The failure to self-start after it has been running a while confirms that power is not getting to the escapement.

If it was me, and I was confident I had eliminated the barrel as the source of the problem, I'd be looking further down the train. I'd first make sure the canon pinion was out to eliminate the motion works as a source of the problem. Also make sure the centre seconds pivot is removed, if it has one, or the seconds hand if it has sub-seconds. If that didn't make a difference I'd then work my way through each wheel starting at the centre wheel. Is it sitting level? At the right height? Does it have just enough end shake? Does it have excessive side shake? What happens if you touch the upper pivot with a piece of pegwood with just a little bit of power in the mainspring? What about the lower pivot? Once I was certain there was no problem there I'd move on to the third wheel, and so on all the way down the train.

Just because the train runs freely with the pallet out does not mean it has no problems as excessive side shake (for example) will only be an issue when the train is under tension.

Finally, I advise you to stop re-cleaning until you have fixed it. I know the temptation, but it's just a distraction. You need to be systematic and methodical.

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7 minutes ago, GPrideaux said:

It's not great, IF you did the test without the pallet installed. Assuming 18000 beats per day, 25 seconds is 125 beats or about 62 oscillations. You should get 100 or more.

If the pallet was in place when you did the test it means nothing. Either way, this is not the principal issue.

I was going to mention that I recently worked out that I get much better pics with a loupe held in front of the phone camera than trying to shoot down the microscope. I use a 20x loupe, but try with whatever you have.

The roller jewel (or impulse jewel) could be an issue, particularly if it is loose, but this is also not the main issue. Get some clear pics so you can ask the experienced members here about it after you have addressed the main issue.

Nothing in the escapement explains the rapid deterioration you're seeing 20 minutes after winding. That suggests an issue in the train rather than the escapement. The failure to self-start after it has been running a while confirms that power is not getting to the escapement.

If it was me, and I was confident I had eliminated the barrel as the source of the problem, I'd be looking further down the train. I'd first make sure the canon pinion was out to eliminate the motion works as a source of the problem. Also make sure the centre seconds pivot is removed, if it has one, or the seconds hand if it has sub-seconds. If that didn't make a difference I'd then work my way through each wheel starting at the centre wheel. Is it sitting level? At the right height? Does it have just enough end shake? Does it have excessive side shake? What happens if you touch the upper pivot with a piece of pegwood with just a little bit of power in the mainspring? What about the lower pivot? Once I was certain there was no problem there I'd move on to the third wheel, and so on all the way down the train.

Just because the train runs freely with the pallet out does not mean it has no problems as excessive side shake (for example) will only be an issue when the train is under tension.

Finally, I advise you to stop re-cleaning until you have fixed it. I know the temptation, but it's just a distraction. You need to be systematic and methodical.

Thanks, some great advice.

I have to go over the train every time I refit anything as each wheel has it's own bridge (cock?).

They have a tiny amount of play so you can tighten them down in slightly different positions. This changes the gear mesh. I went through all that when I first started having issues with it.

Movement works isn't fitted at the moment and nor is the seconds hand.

The only reason I'm cleaning it every time is because each time I assemble it, I lubricate it. Mainly because you have to remove the balance wheel and hairspring to oil the top balance jewel. It's a pain so I always live in hope it will be going together for the last time. As the top one has to be oiled, so does the bottom one. Then I may as well do the train wheels....

I could just do the whole thing dry, but if it works, I'll still have to disassemble the balance again and it's always a risk. The hair spring is pinned, the cap jewel screws are underneath (stupid design. To be fair, the 3 separate bridges is a stupid design too).

 

I'll play with it more tomorrow and gather some more info, pics, and maybe some video.

 

Thanks for all the advice.

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4 minutes ago, graemeW said:

I always live in hope it will be going together for the last time.

I get that, but you're making unnecessary work for yourself. Resign yourself to having to give the movement a final clean and lubrication once you've fixed the problem. You probably won't need to redo the balance or the barrel in any case. The oil captured between the hole and cap jewels will still be good even if you've had it in and out of the movement half a dozen times.

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OP, several things to say here.

You seem to have different behavior of the movement in different positions, more - You report it tends to stop with dial up. Nothing similar can be related with the barrel/spring problems. Playing with the barrel has nothing to do with searching for the problem.

What You report about working well for 15 min. after full wind and then worsen may be because the spring is held tight by the click. Simply don't wind the movement to the end or release half revolution of the ratchet wheel back after full wind as to be sure You are in the normal area of the spring torque until diagnosing the movement is complete.

I see You unpin the hairspring every time You remove the balance from the cock. Who told You to do that? This is stupid, You just have to remove the stud from the cock. The stud has a pin that tight fits in the hole of the cock. Just press the pin from above when the cock is supported on some edge near the stud

No need to clean and lubricate everything every time. Make the movement run as it should, then if needed, re clean and re lubricate for last time if it makes You happy.

Now, concentrate on balance. Try to make good pictures of the pivots. You have huge vertical positions differences, so we need to be sure no pivot is bent. Make some video of the free oscillations test. Make the free oscillations test in DU position too in order to compare with DD.

The amplitude... You don't need software or timrfrapher for reading amplitude. This is one arm (2 spokes) balance, the amplitude is seen with naked eye. If it is hard for You to see it, put a dot with marker on the balance rim and observe it. Thus You will know the amplitude. We all can see the amplitude if we have slo mo video.

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7 hours ago, GPrideaux said:

I get that, but you're making unnecessary work for yourself. Resign yourself to having to give the movement a final clean and lubrication once you've fixed the problem. You probably won't need to redo the balance or the barrel in any case. The oil captured between the hole and cap jewels will still be good even if you've had it in and out of the movement half a dozen times.

Indeed, at least for the fault finding, you don't need to do the balance every time. 

On that note, though, how do you oil the balance? 9010, I'm sure, but do you oil the cap jewel and then try to combien neatly, or do you oil the assembled cock from below? The former is very hard to get right without displacing the oil. 

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1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

OP, several things to say here.

You seem to have different behavior of the movement in different positions, more - You report it tends to stop with dial up. Nothing similar can be related with the barrel/spring problems. Playing with the barrel has nothing to do with searching for the problem.

What You report about working well for 15 min. after full wind and then worsen may be because the spring is held tight by the click. Simply don't wind the movement to the end or release half revolution of the ratchet wheel back after full wind as to be sure You are in the normal area of the spring torque until diagnosing the movement is complete.

I see You unpin the hairspring every time You remove the balance from the cock. Who told You to do that? This is stupid, You just have to remove the stud from the cock. The stud has a pin that tight fits in the hole of the cock. Just press the pin from above when the cock is supported on some edge near the stud

No need to clean and lubricate everything every time. Make the movement run as it should, then if needed, re clean and re lubricate for last time if it makes You happy.

Now, concentrate on balance. Try to make good pictures of the pivots. You have huge vertical positions differences, so we need to be sure no pivot is bent. Make some video of the free oscillations test. Make the free oscillations test in DU position too in order to compare with DD.

The amplitude... You don't need software or timrfrapher for reading amplitude. This is one arm (2 spokes) balance, the amplitude is seen with naked eye. If it is hard for You to see it, put a dot with marker on the balance rim and observe it. Thus You will know the amplitude. We all can see the amplitude if we have slo mo video.

I didn't want to press the pin out as it's tight. It also doesn't seem to have a way to reliably repeat rotational orientation. Last issue with that is it looks like it once had a screw like they normally do, but it's no longer there. It's tight now, but removing it might lead to issues.

 

Some good points made, thanks, I'll work on the balance today and get some good pictures

1 hour ago, Knebo said:

Indeed, at least for the fault finding, you don't need to do the balance every time. 

On that note, though, how do you oil the balance? 9010, I'm sure, but do you oil the cap jewel and then try to combien neatly, or do you oil the assembled cock from below? The former is very hard to get right without displacing the oil. 

I place oil on the end stone and then reassemble the cock.

Yes, it was tricky the first couple of times but I've got the technique nailed now.

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Well-written and good suggestions @GPrideaux! There's one thing I don't quite get:

9 hours ago, GPrideaux said:

Also make sure the centre seconds pivot is removed, if it has one, or the seconds hand if it has sub-seconds.

Centre Seconds Pivot.jpg

The centre seconds pivot I get if it is what's in the centre of the picture!? It's just a distraction at this point in the fault-finding process. However, in what way would a sub-seconds hand be a distraction?

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1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

Well-written and good suggestions @GPrideaux! There's one thing I don't quite get:

Centre Seconds Pivot.jpg

The centre seconds pivot I get if it is what's in the centre of the picture!? It's just a distraction at this point in the fault-finding process. However, in what way would a sub-seconds hand be a distraction?

I assumed it just wasn't necessary for it to be there for the watch to run, so remove one more variable.

It's a sub seconds watch anyway so not an issue in this case.

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2 hours ago, graemeW said:

I didn't want to press the pin out as it's tight. It also doesn't seem to have a way to reliably repeat rotational orientation. Last issue with that is it looks like it once had a screw like they normally do, but it's no longer there. It's tight now, but removing it might lead to issues.

Now I see. It is like 5 bars movement but it actually has screw to fix the stud. In this case it is good to press the stud out and then to remove the remain of the screw. This is easier done by etching in alum or H2SO4 solution

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18 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

Now I see. It is like 5 bars movement but it actually has screw to fix the stud. In this case it is good to press the stud out and then to remove the remain of the screw. This is easier done by etching in alum or H2SO4 solution

The screw is completely missing. I think the pin has been peened in now instead. I don't really want to disturb it. 

Edited by graemeW
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3 hours ago, VWatchie said:

in what way would a sub-seconds hand be a distraction?

I don't imagine the hands and dial are on the watch at the moment, but if they were I'd want the seconds hand removed while fault finding to eliminate the possibility that the problem was caused by the seconds hand rubbing on the dial. It's just about getting down the minimal working system: barrel/mainspring, train and escapement.

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Taking nothing for granted this time, figured I'd check if the hair spring is central. It's not. It's also touching the regulator pin. Am I right in thinking at rest, the collar should stay over the jewel obviously, and the regulator pins shouldn't touch the spring throughout it's movement?

20250124_132731.thumb.jpg.726bdbffca346f12cb6616f4ad8926ea.jpg

 

It wasn't sitting parallel with the cock, but that was due to how I'd pinned it. I loosened the pin and adjusted the spring. When the spring is on the balance I assume it will help pin the spring square.

It is slightly cupped though. Enough to be an issue?

20250124_133227.thumb.jpg.95f9cdce2d5434b70433b3f969557ef1.jpg

Played with it for a while. Made things worse, then made them better again, then figured I'd take the spring off the cock and just tweek it till it looked like every hairspring I've seen on YouTube.

Put it back on and its central, and stays central throughout the regulator range.

So, I've achieved what I set out to, but I'm not 100% positive that I set out to achieve the right goal.

20250124_143503.thumb.jpg.ac2f763f73d56f0eebc23b881605c79f.jpg

Need a tea break after that. Then I'll try and get it back on in the same place so the beat error isn't horrendous. I'll stick the balance assembly on the bare main plate and film the oscillation test.

Edited by graemeW
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Success, and failure.

Balance is back together. I need to adjust the position though as the roller jewel is way of.

More than that though, rookie mistake. I set the hair spring between the pins, forgetting that to rotating pin is oval. So when I close it up the hair spring is in contact with the outer regulator pin. I assume that's bad. At rest, without the outer pin rotated closed, it sits like this. 

Edit... I've been reading and I now understand how the gap should be between the spring and the pins. I'll have another attempt at this.

20250124_155701.thumb.jpg.b6c5f52f1c9f3546bcdb8c82d868314d.jpg

Oh, and the pivots look like this. It's not a banana, it's just because of multiple lenses and trying to get a high mag photo

20250124_152322.thumb.jpg.b5815e3e0a9ed782523ed2ec0601019e.jpg

Slightly wonky jewel20250124_152036.thumb.jpg.04f99662c45dccd14ede7833e177e46d.jpg

 

But, the free oscillation test, 180 degrees, USSR makes that 53 seconds

 

 

Turns out I didn't need to take it apart. A tiny tweek got the hairspring between the pins when closed. It doesn't touch and doesn't touch for the operation range of the regulator. Free oscillation test gives me 56 seconds. I'm calling that good.

Pallet fork flops about happily. I read different reports on if I should oil the fork pivots or not. Unless told otherwise, I'll leave them dry.

 

Train of wheels in and mesh checked/adjusted. End shake and side shake checked.tried to give it as small a push as i could

 

Entry jewel

20250124_174832.thumb.jpg.d4e0bb30980f420a20ba21f50e02b395.jpg

Exit jewel

20250124_174901.thumb.jpg.1db8fc0f7c026cc957a677745f5c5e4e.jpg

 

I believe how far in these poke is called lock right? How does it look. When I first saw it I thought it looked like they poked in more than usual.

I've not oiled them yet because I find it really difficult and wanted to hide the results 😂

Flicks back and forth ok I think

 

 

All this so far is no different to how it's been every other time. Only difference is I've now adjusted the hair spring, that and the barrel moves easier on the arbor. I believe these may have been my issues though. I'll oil the jewels, may as well, everything else has been lubricated. Then I guess I'll chick the balance back in and hold my breath!!

Edited by graemeW
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