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Hi, apologies for what may be quite a long post. 

I have a 1917 trench watch that I just can't seem to get running right.

Straight after it's back together it runs great, amplitude up at 300, 0.5ms beat error, 10sd fast, not much variation in position. Then, over a period of maybe 10 or 20 mins it's down to 150 or less amplitude, huge positional variation and sometimes stopping when dial up.

 

The watch ran when I got it bit didn't check how well.

I've cleaned it a few times now, ultrasonic in IPA. Lighter fluid for the pallet fork and balance.

All jewels pegged and cap jewels polished. All pivots polished with a polishing pin. No wear that I can find anywhere. No cracked jewels. Everything inspected under a microscope. End shake checked, side shake checked. Hair spring looks perfect.

The main spring has probably set, it's 1.70-1.74 x 0.5 x 11.5. 3.65 OD arbor. I think it's 320mm long.

Nearest I could get was 1.75 x 0.135 x 340 x 11. I can't find a better match for the spring.

I assumed this was the problem and swapped the old one back in, bit it's exactly the same.

I am using moebius oils and grease (I can check the numbers, I forget, but the light blue thin ones the red thicker one, and the blue grease. Along with a tiny bit of proper pallet jewel grease)

Pallet fork jewels I have tried oil and no oil.

 

What I am noticing is the spring hardly winds down. Left for 12 hours I can then barely get one or two clicks back into the wind.

I have independently checked ever aspect of train mesh, balance oscilates fantastically, pallet for falls around super easy of its own accord.

 

I just can't work it out. Amplitude starts high then falls quickly and positional error is large. Normally faster dial down, slower dial up, then 2 crown positions will say super fast and 2 will say super slow.

Not sure what to do with it now. Mainspring issue? But I can't find a better one. Poise issue? But why would that alter.

 

Thanks.

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13 minutes ago, graemeW said:

The main spring has probably set, it's 1.70-1.74 x 0.5 x 11.5. 3.65 OD arbor. I think it's 320mm long.

Nearest I could get was 1.75 x 0.135 x 340 x 11. I can't find a better match for the spring.

Can you confirm these sizes in particular the x 0.5.

What's the movement and photos may help.

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Welcome Graeme to the forum!

  

17 minutes ago, graemeW said:

Straight after it's back together it runs great, amplitude up at 300, 0.5ms beat error, 10sd fast, not much variation in position. Then, over a period of maybe 10 or 20 mins it's down to 150 or less amplitude, huge positional variation and sometimes stopping when dial up.

Is this happening with a case up watch with hands and dial on? Or the bare movement? If the former, I'm wondering if the hands get stuck (hands not parallel) or the hour wheel is binding on the hole in the dial (bent dial feet).

 

18 minutes ago, graemeW said:

ultrasonic in IPA

IPA is not an effective cleaner. It's better for rinsing. Maybe try the lighter fluid in the ultrasonic for all watch parts and then rinse with IPA.

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Sounds like an interesting case. Can you post timegrapher pictures?

 

2 hours ago, graemeW said:

What I am noticing is the spring hardly winds down. Left for 12 hours I can then barely get one or two clicks back into the wind.

This is very weird. I can't get my hand around it... if the watch runs during those 12h (does it?), it kinda has to unwind...

Is the barrel closed properly? Does the arbor have a little bit of endshake inside the closed barrel?

 

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2 hours ago, graemeW said:

What I am noticing is the spring hardly winds down. Left for 12 hours I can then barely get one or two clicks back into the wind.

That's a major red flag! It tells us the barrel isn't spinning as it should. Are you positively sure you don't have excessive arbor side shake? It takes very little for the barrel to start scraping against the barrel bridge or the main plate.

It could be something else, but I'd say your problems begin at or in the barrel. That's where I'd look first. Is the barrel spinning freely around the arbor without the mainspring installed? That is, assemble the barrel (arbor and lid) without the mainspring and make sure the barrel spins freely around the arbor. More details are in the link below.

 

Edited by VWatchie
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13 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Sounds like an interesting case. Can you post timegrapher pictures?

 

This is very weird. I can't get my hand around it... if the watch runs during those 12h (does it?), it kinda has to unwind...

Is the barrel closed properly? Does the arbor have a little bit of endshake inside the closed barrel?

 

I'll take some later.

Barrel closes fine, haven't checked about End shake.

Yes, runs constantly, but at maybe 120 degrees amplitude, but isn't unwinding much.

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8 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

That's a major red flag! It tells us the barrel isn't spinning as it should. Are you positively sure you don't have excessive arbor side shake? It takes very little for the barrel to start scraping against the barrel bridge or the main plate.

It could be something else, but I'd say your problems begin at or in the barrel. That's where I'd look first. Is the barrel spinning freely around the arbor without the mainspring installed? That is, assemble the barrel (arbor and lid) without the mainspring and make sure the barrel spins freely around the arbor. More details are in the link below.

 

There is no wobble or play in the barrel bridge etc. I will check the barrel to arbour situation later. 

12 minutes ago, Klassiker said:

If you take out the balance and pallet fork (let the mainspring down first), and push on the barrel, does the escape wheel spin freely?

Yes, very. Whole watch seems very free moving

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Just now, AndyGSi said:

Do you have the full details to confirm the mainspring is correct.

Have you checked the barrel depth to suit the 1.75mm spring?

I could not find any further info. All I know is it's 1916, made by AS and 13 ligne.

I only had the spring that was in it to judge what should go back. It may not have been right. I measured the barrel and harbour and then just got the length, thickness and height from what was in it.

For what it's worth, in my limited experience, it feels like other watches, looks like other watches, takes a appropriate of effort to wind, winds for as long as I'd expect too.

I know that doesn't mean much, but it's not wildly wrong.

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1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

I just remembered I made a video showing how to perform the test I'm talking about. I hope it helps!

 

I remember watching this video a while ago. Really good! 

1 hour ago, graemeW said:

Yes, runs constantly, but at maybe 120 degrees amplitude, but isn't unwinding much

I really still don't understand how this can be possible. All wheels, including the barrel, should move advance (and unwind) the exact same, irrespective of high or low amplitude. 

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Yes, that's a furphy. If it runs for 12 hours, the centre wheel turns 12 full revolutions. The ratio between barrel and centre wheel is typically about 8:1 so the barrel must turn 1.5 full revolutions in that time. If you're only getting in one or two clicks on the wind the watch can't have been running for the 12 hours. (Unless you have elves who are pranking you by winding the watch just before you get to it.) It must have run for 15 or 20 minutes then stopped. Then perhaps it started up again when you touched it, and you assumed it had been running for the whole time. Dunno, but the centre wheel simply can't turn twelve full revolutions without the corresponding motion of the barrel unless the connection between them fails, and if the connection did fail the watch would lose its only source of power and stop anyway (and the mainspring would unwind all at once, possibly catastrophically).

So, setting that aside, the barrel is the most likely problem, with wear where the arbor interfaces with the barrel and/or lid, or wear between arbor and bridge or mainplate.

Very simple check: with the barrel installed and no wind in the mainspring try tilting the barrel with a pair of tweezers on each side. It should move an almost imperceptible amount due to arbor side shake. If it moves half a degree or more you have a problem. Have a look at this post for an example of excessive side-shake (and also excessive end-shake):

If your barrel looks anything like mine in the video shown there, it needs work!

 

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I have some new results.

It had ran overnight, or at least it ran when I left it (under a cover) and was running in the morning when I got up. As mentioned, maybe it stopped and restarted.

I got a click or two on it and left it while I went to work. I got home 7.5 hours later and it was still running. Maybe half unwound this time though. Low amplitude (about 120) but picked up a little when I wound it.

I'm only using an app on my phone, but tried testing it again and it's a bit better, but still not good.

I adjusted it a little and tested it.

Dial down

Screenshot_20250123-153844.thumb.jpg.2136f072c554c2cf19bd61ea138cb8da.jpg

Dual up. It stopped on me. I restarted it and...

Screenshot_20250123-154029.thumb.jpg.3dfa346a02478231561c4f7a11f7005f.jpg

 

Crown upScreenshot_20250123-154102.thumb.jpg.f663a2cd2b699d1ee6de780faa6adbfd.jpg

Crown right

Screenshot_20250123-154142.thumb.jpg.88bcc3d0b38fa65acb71625f12b63388.jpg

Crown downScreenshot_20250123-154213.thumb.jpg.5ade3676cac62c86e3ba03985eaec3a3.jpg

Crown leftScreenshot_20250123-154247.thumb.jpg.bd324f540ca23ce15021b453342a62b3.jpg

 

This is actually better than it was before.

I have stripped, cleaned, and lubricated it maybe 4 times now.

Each time it starts off doing 400 amplitude, 0.4ms beat error, and is settable for good time. Then it all goes to pot and gradually gets worse.

It doesn't self start when I stop it either. It would do at first.

Good to know the spring is supposedly right, although it's no different with the new spring. I will refit it though now I know Its not the issue.

I'll take it apart again later and inspect the barrel, but I have checked barrel about to bridge/manipulate and there is only a tiny bit of clearance, like tiny. Not wear, just what you would expect.

I'll try and photo/video some aspects of it when I take it apart again 

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Barrel bridge

20250123_155914.thumb.jpg.3fec8641717ed37c205faf3f6a5c9a1e.jpg

 

Main plate

20250123_155914.thumb.jpg.3fec8641717ed37c205faf3f6a5c9a1e.jpg

Hair spring

20250123_160403.thumb.jpg.c8a65137dc1b4270e748042d39a7f826.jpg

 

I took some video but not sure how to get them on here. Might be able to do it as YouTube links, but they just show the pallet fork snapping back and forth as it should, the train spinning at the slightest touch of the barrel, and the balance oscillating freely.

20250123_155938.jpg

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I guess I'll strip it again a bit later, clean it again, rebuild it again, for the new main spring again and then be amazed that it runs just as badly as it does now 😂

 

Only thing I don't like is the hairspring looks to have been replaced. The excess hasn't been cut off. But it is nowhere near touching anything. Should I cut it?

Ive unpinned the hairpsring maybe 5 times so far to clean the end stone. I hate unpinning and removing it, but I guess I should do it every time I take it apart as the oil in the jewel will have been displaced right?

Edited by graemeW
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Barrel without mainspring rotates on the arbor easily enough, bit it doesn't spin, and certainly wouldn't go with a puff of air like the linked video. How free should it be?  

It has some end shake. Has a tiny bit of play in the barrel arbor hole that can allow a tiny bit of rock but it's small. 

Edited by graemeW
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