Eta 2782 automatic winding issues

[enz0]

Hi everyone,

My current project of restoring an eta 2782 has hit a road block. After cleaning and lubrication the movement is running great however I'm having issues with the automatic works. 

All 4 of the wheels move freely when tested. When I attach the automatic bridge to the main plate and wind the movement with the stem all the automatic wheels spin freely too. When I attach the rotor however I am unable to wind the moment using the stem and When moving the rotor around there appears to be no movement from the wheels to the the click. 

Any help would be really appreciated. Thanks!

 

[AndyGSi]

What happens if you fit the rotor to the framework off the movement?

[enz0]

56 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

What happens if you fit the rotor to the framework off the movement?

It fits fine and there's no shaking. It will rotate but I'm just unable to wind the watch at all if the rotor is fitted on and spinning the rotor doesn't seem to actually wind the mainspring 

[AndyGSi]

28 minutes ago, enz0 said:

It fits fine and there's no shaking. It will rotate but I'm just unable to wind the watch at all if the rotor is fitted on and spinning the rotor doesn't seem to actually wind the mainspring 

And when you rotate it off the movement do all the wheels rotate as they should?

Have you stripped and cleaned this and are you sure the pawl wheels are the correct way around?

[enz0]

1 minute ago, AndyGSi said:

And when you rotate it off the movement do all the wheels rotate as they should?

Have you stripped and cleaned this and are you sure the pawl wheels are the correct way around?

They do however as I mentioned, I don't hear the click moving and visually the click doesn't move either. I've stripped and cleaned the whole movement and cleaned each of the automatic components 3 extra times now 

[AndyGSi]

6 minutes ago, enz0 said:

They do however as I mentioned, I don't hear the click moving and visually the click doesn't move either. I've stripped and cleaned the whole movement and cleaned each of the automatic components 3 extra times now 

Not sure what you mean by the click?

I'm talking about checking the automatic train works OK when off the movement.

Can you take the bridge off the framework and post another photo.

[enz0]

26 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

Not sure what you mean by the click?

I'm talking about checking the automatic train works OK when off the movement.

Can you take the bridge off the framework and post another photo.

 

[GPrideaux]

To be clear, to check the automatic train off the movement you should have the automatic works fully assembled, including the rotor, but not installed in the movement. Move the rotor and see that the motion is transferred to the winding wheel with its pinion and that it turns in the right direction regardless of which way the rotor moves. The winding wheel pinion should, I believe, turn anticlockwise when installed, so if you're checking it with it turned over look for clockwise movement.

It does sound like there is an issue with the pawl wheels as they are what should isolate the movement of the ratchet wheel from the rotor when winding by hand. It sounds like these have been either swapped or installed upside down. (I don't know the movement so I don't know if that's possible, but it's what the symptoms described suggest to me.)

The photo Andy requested was of the automatic works with the bridge removed that holds three wheels, like the third pic in the original post but without the bridge.

Edited January 22 by GPrideaux
Respond to photo

[enz0]

13 minutes ago, GPrideaux said:

To be clear, to check the automatic train off the movement you should have the automatic works fully assembled, including the rotor, but not installed in the movement. Move the rotor and see that the motion is transferred to the winding wheel with its pinion and that it turns in the right direction regardless of which way the rotor moves. The winding wheel pinion should, I believe, turn anticlockwise when installed, so if you're checking it with it turned over look for clockwise movement.

It does sound like there is an issue with the pawl wheels as they are what should isolate the movement of the ratchet wheel from the rotor when winding by hand. It sounds like these have been either swapped or installed upside down. (I don't know the movement so I don't know if that's possible, but it's what the symptoms described suggest to me.)

The photo Andy requested was of the automatic works with the bridge removed that holds three wheels, like the third pic in the original post but without the bridge.

Hi thanks for your advice, I performed the check you recommend and you're right, the wheels at the very end that isn't covered by the bridge doesn't turn regardless of the direction the rotor turns. What does this mean then? I've also double checked and I've definitely installed the wheels in the right direction so they can't be upside down

 

 

[AndyGSi]

So from right to left you've got.

Pawl Wheel without Pinion

Pawl Wheel with Pinion

Reduction Gear

Drive gear.

So if the Pawl Wheels rotate the Reduction Gear but the Drive Gear
doesn't move then the problem must be with the Reduction Gear.

What does the pinion look like on the rear of the Reduction Gear that meshes with the Drive Gear?

 

[enz0]

7 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

So from right to left you've got.

Pawl Wheel without Pinion

Pawl Wheel with Pinion

Reduction Gear

Drive gear.

So if the Pawl Wheels rotate the Reduction Gear but the Drive Gear
doesn't move then the problem must be with the Reduction Gear.

What does the pinion look like on the rear of the Reduction Gear that meshes with the Drive Gear?

 

Thank you for the help, I inspected the Reduction Gear under my microscope and it appears to be in good shape, can't spot anything obvious 

 

[RichardHarris123]

Is the pivot broken?

[AndyGSi]

Difficult to tell from this photo but your are placing the reduction
gear the correct way around to mesh with the drive gear?

If you are then the question becomes why does the drive gear not rotate?

[enz0]

2 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

Difficult to tell from this photo but your are placing the reduction
gear the correct way around to mesh with the drive gear?

If you are then the question becomes why does the drive gear not rotate?

Its definitely the right way up, i even tried placing it the other way just to make sure and it doesn't rotate either

[enz0]

4 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Is the pivot broken?

From what I can see under the microscope it appears to be fine

[AndyGSi]

So going back to square one.

With the rotor fitted the pawl wheels rotate?

The pawl wheels then rotate the reduction wheel?

The reduction wheel doesn't rotate the drive wheel?

Edit

Just had another thought.

How secure is the pinion in the reduction wheel?

Can you rotate it without rotating the wheel itself?

Edited January 22 by AndyGSi

[enz0]

2 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

So going back to square one.

With the rotor fitted the pawl wheels rotate?

The pawl wheels then rotate the reduction wheel?

The reduction wheel doesn't rotate the drive wheel?

That's correct, the drive wheel won't rotate with the rotor ON but for some reason when the rotor is OFF, all wheels including the drive wheel rotate 

[AndyGSi]

I can't get my head around why if they rotate OK from left to right why they won't rotate from right to left.

[GPrideaux]

That's what makes me think of the pawl wheels, since they're meant to transfer the energy in just one direction ... just the opposite direction!

As I understand it, the rotor turns the top half of both pawl wheels and the pawls on one of them lock and on the other release, so that regardless of which way the rotor turns the bottom half of the wheels turn in the same direction. Looking at the underside, the drive wheel should turn clockwise, the reduction wheel anticlockwise, the pawl wheel with pinion clockwise, and the pawl wheel without pinion anticlockwise.

Are the two pawl wheels intact and meshing properly? It could just be the lighting but something doesn't look right in the photo. It looks like there are broken teeth. If broken teeth have fallen in amongst the pawls ...

Update: probably just not a clear photo as they look fine in the original pic.

Unless they've been chewed up between pics because of pawls that weren't releasing.

[AndyGSi]

13 minutes ago, GPrideaux said:

That's what makes me think of the pawl wheels, since they're meant to transfer the energy in just one direction ... just the opposite direction!

As I understand it, the rotor turns the top half of both pawl wheels and the pawls on one of them lock and on the other release, so that regardless of which way the rotor turns the bottom half of the wheels turn in the same direction. Looking at the underside, the drive wheel should turn clockwise, the reduction wheel anticlockwise, the pawl wheel with pinion clockwise, and the pawl wheel without pinion anticlockwise.

Are the two pawl wheels intact and meshing properly? It could just be the lighting but something doesn't look right in the photo. It looks like there are broken teeth. If broken teeth have fallen in amongst the pawls ...

Update: probably just not a clear photo as they look fine in the original pic.

Unless they've been chewed up between pics because of pawls that weren't releasing.

Is it that the pawl wheel without the pinion is upside down?

Edit

It should be a longer pivot on the side that faces up as we're looking at it now.

Edited January 22 by AndyGSi

[enz0]

9 minutes ago, GPrideaux said:

That's what makes me think of the pawl wheels, since they're meant to transfer the energy in just one direction ... just the opposite direction!

As I understand it, the rotor turns the top half of both pawl wheels and the pawls on one of them lock and on the other release, so that regardless of which way the rotor turns the bottom half of the wheels turn in the same direction. Looking at the underside, the drive wheel should turn clockwise, the reduction wheel anticlockwise, the pawl wheel with pinion clockwise, and the pawl wheel without pinion anticlockwise.

Are the two pawl wheels intact and meshing properly? It could just be the lighting but something doesn't look right in the photo. It looks like there are broken teeth. If broken teeth have fallen in amongst the pawls ...

Update: probably just not a clear photo as they look fine in the original pic.

Unless they've been chewed up between pics because of pawls that weren't releasing.

I just checked under the microscope and wheels are fine and meshing properly, no problems at all until the rotor is attached 

[enz0]

3 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

Is it that the pawl wheel without the pinion is upside down?

I don't think so, I tested it the other way just too make sure and the same problem persists

[AndyGSi]

3 minutes ago, enz0 said:

I don't think so, I tested it the other way just too make sure and the same problem persists

Can you post a photo of the other side of that pawl wheel.

[GPrideaux]

Or were the pawl wheels disassembled at some point and reassembled incorrectly? (I doubt it as I thought these wheels were not meant to be disassembled, but I know from personal experience that relative beginners do all sorts of things out of ignorance!) It's not possible to tell with any confidence, but it kind of looks like both pawls are set to turn the bottom half anticlockwise. If that were the case, installing the rotor would make it impossible to turn in one direction and ineffective in the other.

[enz0]

4 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

Can you post a photo of the other side of that pawl wheel.