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Watch won't run after installing new balance for Seiko A-201 sportsman


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11 minutes ago, caseback said:

Please allow me to be Dutch for a moment 😉

I do believe earlier on you already got some tips that, when followed up on, would have helped you to find this issue:

And:

Again, and I can't stress that enough: we do want to help. But it would also help (and keep us motivated to offer it) if we see that you actually do something with it..

If I sound a bit harsh: sorry, just living up to the reputation the Dutch have for being direct (blunt..).

I think this is also another case of if the full story had been told from the start regarding replacing the cap jewel then things would have been a lot clearer.

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1 hour ago, rph952 said:

Here's a brief video showing the problem. I looked at a video I recorded when I got the watch and there is no jewel movement.

So it's not just the jewel that was missing but the complete frame.

Edit

Just had a closer look and the jewel and frame don't look too bad but is the spring fitted the correct way round?

Edited by AndyGSi
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Andy: Well, I had no idea it mattered which way the KIF spring was resting. That's something I'd probably learn in a class. I've watched hundreds of hours of YT videos, but nobody mentioned it. Thanks! It spins freely for a few turns, so that's an improvement. No movement in the jewel. I'll report back once I have the pallet fork.

Edited by rph952
add thought
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4 hours ago, rph952 said:

Andy: Well, I had no idea it mattered which way the KIF spring was resting. That's something I'd probably learn in a class. I've watched hundreds of hours of YT videos, but nobody mentioned it. Thanks! It spins freely for a few turns, so that's an improvement. No movement in the jewel. I'll report back once I have the pallet fork.

Well if balance spins for a few turns, this is nothing. You should have 100 full oscillations (turn left  + turn right = one oscillation) if balance deflected to 180 degr. and released. 

It is not so important which way the shock spring is put. This is when the cap stone is correct one. See, in the setting, there is dedicated place for the cap stone to fit. If the stone is small, then it will fall directly on the hole stone, which is not correct, as there should be distance between the stones. Further more, if the stone is too thin, the spring will not be able to press on the setting (the spring presses the stone) and it will be able to wobble (as in You case). So first source correct stone. But something makes me thing that something else is wrong here and needs investigation. Are You sure that the balance is correct for the movement? It looks very much like if it is not.

Can You explain what is wrong with the pallet fork? Nothing on You pictures helps to understand.

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Neven: I was just checking cap stones online and I can see size but not height of the stone. For example: http://www.julesborel.com/products/Seitz-Endstone-Cap-Jewels

I measure 1.1 mm with a digital handheld caliper, for what it's worth. I can buy an assortment of 0.3 to 1.3 mm cap stones on eBay for a lot less than JB. I can use some advice here. I'm learning as I go.

I'm certain the issue is in the balance, probably the cap stone. As for the pallet fork, I can't get it to seat in the jewel and the tip looks broken. There's a tiny piece missing. I don't have a known good pallet fork though, so can't say for sure.

I do have another balance from an exact match of watch/movement, Westclox, but it has the same behavior. Thanks.

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2 hours ago, rph952 said:

and the tip looks broken

You haven't shown us a photo of the pallet pivots where one looks broken. Here's one of mine with a broken pivot (from a Seiko 7S26C movement). The pivot on the right is fine, the one on the left has been broken off.

brokenpalletpivot.png.bbf5d399ca2c7599c86287628c682126.png

By way of contrast, here's one with both pivots intact (from an ETA 1080 movement):

goodpalletpivot.png.7b9c28d564ea4be113e92c911d01ce2e.png

The photo you posted only showed one pivot, and it looked fine. It's possible the other has been broken, but in any case you should be getting the balance sorted before worrying too much about the pallet.

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19 hours ago, rph952 said:

Neven: I was just checking cap stones online and I can see size but not height of the stone. For example: http://www.julesborel.com/products/Seitz-Endstone-Cap-Jewels

I measure 1.1 mm with a digital handheld caliper, for what it's worth. I can buy an assortment of 0.3 to 1.3 mm cap stones on eBay for a lot less than JB. I can use some advice here. I'm learning as I go.

I'm certain the issue is in the balance, probably the cap stone. As for the pallet fork, I can't get it to seat in the jewel and the tip looks broken. There's a tiny piece missing. I don't have a known good pallet fork though, so can't say for sure.

I do have another balance from an exact match of watch/movement, Westclox, but it has the same behavior. Thanks.

I am not sure the problem is the cap stone. Actually I am sure it is not. @caseback gave You advice to remove the balance cock jewel setting and spring completely, this is good to do and see if the balance will get free in DD position. I don't see on You videos the upside pivot under the cap stone. This can mean that the pivot can't get in the hole of the stone in the setting and if so, this will explain what happens. Are You sure that the jewel setting is original/correct for the movement? Do You have another movement? With complete balance cock? When You say You have another balance, is it oscillating normally in the other movement?

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Thanks for your suggestions. I replaced the 310660 balance with the balance/cock for the donor exact match movement. Now it spins freely for about 25-30 seconds. That's a big improvement. Maybe 310660 is a generic number for a broad grouping of balances. This is way over my head. I still need to insert a pallet fork. The hairspring looks like it's bent in one spot. I need to have a closer look.

 

 

Edited by rph952
added thought.
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I installed the donor pallet fork and now the watch is running, but only for 10 seconds. The lower side of the pallet fork only seems to go into the hole when I add the bridge. A visual check shows lower and upper are properly seated. I'll check the hairspring.

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5 hours ago, rph952 said:

Now it spins freely for about 25-30 seconds.

That, and your video, are not enough to be confident the balance is not rubbing on anything. You also seem to be testing without the pallet cock installed, so you won't detect any issue with the balance rubbing on the pallet cock. Replace the pallet cock and screw it down (without the pallet) then test the balance again. Give the balance a 180º turn (using an oiler or an artist's paintbrush) then when you release it count the full oscillations until it comes to a complete rest. You should get at least 100 full oscillations. For an 18000 bph balance that'll take at least 40s. Pay particular attention to how it comes to a complete stop: the movement should taper away to nothing; it should not come to a sudden stop.

You really need to be systematic and methodical. IF the balance passes the free oscillation test then you can think about the pallet. Otherwise you'll just keep chasing your tail.

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This is good advice, a lot of beginners don't think to check function groups or train wheels in isolation. Seperate suspects, interrogate and investigate them under spot light to find your criminal.

There may be half a dozen dodgy looking dudes in the line up, spotted at the scene of the crime. 

Seperate and interrogate. 

Edited by Neverenoughwatches
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  • 2 weeks later...

Please ignore my previous post. It was meant for another conversation. I asked that it be taken down. Back to the A201 movement, I tried the following:

Replaced top cap jewel of balance with the original and re-oiled. I had a substitute jewel because I lost the original, but found it a couple days later. That was miracle. I put it down and looked away for one second and then it was gone.

Removed the pallet fork and spun the balance with a small paintbrush. It ran for 1 minute, fast for about 20 seconds, then slowly came to a stop.

Spun the train of wheels. Everything spins but the escape wheel comes to an abrupt stop.

Took a photo of the pallet fork and the pallet fork jewel (looks bumpy), and a photo of the hairspring.

Videotaped a side view of the balance spinning without the pallet fork. I can't see what I don't know so I hope more perceptive people have some ideas. Thanks.

 

2025_0201_150726_074.JPG

2025_0201_161238_077.JPG

2025_0201_154908_075.JPG

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13 hours ago, rph952 said:

Removed the pallet fork and spun the balance with a small paintbrush. It ran for 1 minute, fast for about 20 seconds, then slowly came to a stop.

 

Hmmm ... that's not what your video shows. In your video the balance starts with almost 180º amplitude, oscillates some 46 times and has almost come to rest when the video ends. That's only about half the free oscillations you should expect from a 180º start.

Some things you should look for:

  • Is the hairspring touching the underside of the cock? Examine visually from both sides of the cock.
  • Is the hairspring touching the arms of the balance?
  • Does the balance staff have a little end shake?
  • Is there evidence of the balance touching some other part of the movement? Look for signs of wear on the balance and around its circumference.
  • Any foreign fibres that might touch the balance

I can't see anything problematic in your video or photos, apart from the lower pallet jewel not looking very clean (but that might just be a distorted image of whatever is below it). But there is something, or it would be oscillating more freely than it is. It's probably moving freely enough for the watch to run, but not reliably and with low amplitude.

It's harder to do a dial up free oscillation test, but worthwhile as you can get clues by the comparison of DU and DD tests. (I sit the movement holder on a mirror so I can see what the balance is doing.)

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