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Watch won't run after installing new balance for Seiko A-201 sportsman


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I'm stumped. I had to install a new balance after it had an accident but now the new balance won't spin. It's the correct balance and it's new. On top of that, I installed a backup used balance and the watch still won't run, so the problem is elsewhere. I disassembled and reassembled but everything looks fine, no broken parts. The only thought I had was maybe a broken mainspring. I don't see how that could be the issue though because I put it on the timegrapher with the lame balance and it still ran, just too fast. It winds and feels like it's ok. That's why I replaced the balance, because it was damaged. Thanks for your advice.

 

 

new balance.jpg

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I'm afraid you're not giving us much to go by. There are a lot of possible causes. So, instead of troubleshooting/guessing the assembled movement, my advice would be to completely disassemble, clean and then do your assembly and inspections again using function groups. Work methodical. Step by step until you are at the point where you can put the balance in and it starting up is expected and not a pleasant suprise.

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If you take out the pallet fork and you give it a bit of a wind, how does the escape wheel stop? Sudden, gentle, a bit of backward movement? Could you post a video of it trying to run? Close-ups of the balance and the impulse jewel engaging with the pallet fork? Did you do a free occilation test with just the balance in? When you had just the balance in, was the impulse jewel centered/in line with the pallet fork centre?

Edited by caseback
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Before I do more troubleshooting, I need to learn how to let down the mainspring. This click spring is buried under the ratchet wheel. I don't know how to move the little nub out of the way to let down the spring. Any ideas?

 

click and spring.jpg

click spring assembled.jpg

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then always helpful when asking questions is to give a picture of the overall watch so we can see what you're working on. this is because often times people will not recognize your watch by its designation that you've given which is Seiko A-201 sportsman. Part of the problem with even looking up a watch like this sportsman refers to a whole bunch of watches. But I did find it looks like it's this watch and to get a nice overall picture of the movement so I can see what you're working.

https://watch-movements-archive.com/watch-movement/westclox-a-201-seiko-66b/

28 minutes ago, rph952 said:

little nub out of the way to let down the spring. Any ideas?

if you start to wind the watch the click spring will move and when it moves you should be able to hold it out of the way and release your power.

what was the condition of the watch like before you attempt the service it was a running for instance? Not running I like to know what the condition was before you started doing things to it it helps to isolate where the problem may be.

 

16 hours ago, rph952 said:

the balance

a nice picture of your balance wheel but it's out of the watch. Typically balance wheels are problems in the watch and we really need a nice picture of the balance wheel in the watch ideally looking straight down and then looking in sideways.

16 hours ago, rph952 said:

timegrapher with the lame balance and it still ran, just too fast.

here's a clue it ran but too fast? so it confirms the watch can run which from your description of things sounded like it was in running condition but wasn't clear exactly so sounds like the watch runs just too fast. Typically things are run fast have the do with the hairspring. This is why it's really important to look at the balance wheel in the watch for the problem occurs and to make sure the hairspring looks fine in the watch. Because of the hairspring is banned in the watch like not flat bad things will happen.

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4 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

he picture underneath shows the ratchet and transmission wheel in postion. What rph is asking...... is for future reference of how to learn to power down by disengaging the click.....so not in this particular incidence where he's already managed it.

this is becoming a really confusing conversation because I thought I already explained the answer that he was seeking?

But I can see there seems your problem here like is anyone found where the click went to? It went flying away and was never seen again? oh wait is a problem there is no screw for the click as there is none sort of notice that little piece of metal between my two lines? That's the click and spring. The release it the way release any other click which is to wind the crown it will move away from where it is and was something pointy like your tweezers you can hold it back and release the power. But maybe I'm confused with what everyone else is confused about?

image.png.e33939744f84f59c528bf6fa9d02a556.png

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did you look very carefully at the hairspring to see if it's flat and not touching the balance arms? Then to narrow this down remove the pallet fork so the balance is not influenced by the pallet fork or the pallet fork bridge and see what the balance wheel does for motion all by itself in the watch.

Then the balance jewel assemblies did you remove those?

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3 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

this is becoming a really confusing conversation because I thought I already explained the answer that he was seeking?

 

 

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

don't understand how it could be still wound, without the ratchet wheel. 

Yes you did explain the answer John , my comment was in relation to Richard's question.

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Judging by the way the balance wheel moves (and stops), I'd say there is a lot of friction directly hampering it's movement. Not anything in the train of wheels or the pallet fork. Does it rub against something? How are the pivots? What happens if you remove only the shock spring (balance side)?

Edited by caseback
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I removed the pallet fork and installed the balance cock. The result is the same. It won't spin more than a revolution when I use the air puffer.

This click spring design is not my favorite. Grabbing that nub and pulling down on it is tricky. Being under the ratchet wheel is not good. Here's a side view of the movement.

2025_0118_130515_062.JPG

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Well on this picture it is clearly seen the hairspring is bent up. Probably the other side goes down and rests on the balance arm. The other thing to check is if there is some axial free play of the balance.

OP, just replacing parts without understanding what is needed for their correct function in watchmaking doesn't work. The mechanical watches are not made with 'plug and play' parts. So if You replace part and the movement doesn't work, You start diagnosing as if it is movement with unknown problem. You need to be prepared to discover any problem.

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Neven:

I checked out the hairspring and it sure looks like it was drooping. I unscrewed the hairspring stud and pressed it down and it was maybe a tiny bit out of position. I think that was causing the hairspring to drag.

The other issue is the pallet fork could be damaged at the tip. I think there's a tiny, tiny tip that got mushed. See image. Unfortunately I don't have a photo of one that's undamaged. On top of that, the broken tip is probably stuck in the jewel. I don't have a wire tiny enough to clear the hole.

The balance I installed is a NOS Seiko 310660, designed for this movement. It came in the original package.

Thanks for your help.

2025_0118_151459_066.JPG

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I'm a bit puzzled on what the current status/issue is.

7 hours ago, rph952 said:

Neven:

I checked out the hairspring and it sure looks like it was drooping. I unscrewed the hairspring stud and pressed it down and it was maybe a tiny bit out of position. I think that was causing the hairspring to drag.

Did that free up the balance?

7 hours ago, rph952 said:

The other issue is the pallet fork could be damaged at the tip. I think there's a tiny, tiny tip that got mushed. See image.

New issue? Because earlier:

On 1/18/2025 at 6:10 AM, rph952 said:

I disassembled and reassembled. The pallet fork snaps back and forth and the escape wheel turns with each fork movement.

Please don't take this the wrong way, we're only trying to help, but It seems you're now jumping from issue to issue on an assembled movement. At this point I can only repeat my (and Neven's) earlier advice to start again from scratch (methodical, function groups, etc).

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Focus on the balance. Leave thinking about the pallet until you've got the balance moving freely. (If you know you've broken a pivot you might like to order a replacement pallet fork so it will be on its way as you problem-solve the balance.)

If straightening the balance spring didn't free it up, think what else it could be. Either the balance wheel or spring is touching something somewhere, or there is a problem with the pivots or their jeweled bearings. What I see in the video reminds me of a balance in one of my watches that wouldn't move freely after I'd put one of the end stones in upside down, eliminating the end shake. Check that you haven't done that. The balance staff should be free to move up and down a tiny amount ... it should move less than the thickness of its tiny pivots, but it must have some end shake.

When you've got the balance moving freely then think about how it interacts with the pallet and move the stud carrier so the impulse jewel rests in line with the escape wheel, pallet fork and balance jewels so that it will be approximately in beat. (Based on the photo & video above it's not close to that at the moment so probably would not run even if the balance was moving freely and there was no problem with the pallet fork.) If you don't have a timegrapher, you need to get this as accurate as you can. If you do have a timegrapher it only needs to be central enough to run and you can fine tune it later.

Then it will be time to think about the pallet. It looks like you have broken the pivot -- I've done that, too. I did it by tightening the screw on the cock when I thought the pivots were correctly seated and they were not. I felt it break as I tightened the screw. Now I always make sure I can feel some end shake before I tighten it down to make sure the pivots really are in both holes.

If you lubricated the pallet pivots (you shouldn't) the oil may be holding the broken pivot in its hole but it's not likely to be stuck, and may come out with a puff from an air puffer or you could push it out with a hair held near the end in tweezers. You'll need good magnification to see what you're doing. If all else fails, the other pivot on the broken pallet fork is likely to be the same size as the broken pivot and could be used to push it out.

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GP: Thanks for your thoughtful advice. I checked both upper and lower jewels and they look correct, flat side down. I think the pallet fork hole is clear, so just need a new fork, purchased.

My issue is a common one. I read a lengthy exchange here:

Some Basic Balance Installation Questions

By Macavity
February 11, 2023 in New to watch repair ** Safe Zone For Learner Watch Repairers **

There was no resolution for this thread.

I have discovered something that may help resolve the issue: The balance spins freely when the movement is dial-side up (minus the pallet fork). Any ideas?

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OP, just calm down and try to listen. You don't have problem with the pallet fork. This is something in You own imagination.

You need to understand what is wrong with the balance/hairspring. Moving the hairspring stud up or down will not make the spring stay parallel. The spring is to be bent and twisted near the stud in order to make it stay as it should. This is normal thing to do when installing new balance/hairspring couple in the movement.

Now You say the balance oscillates free when in DU position?

2025_0118_130515_062.thumb.JPG.0d0789f09930ef930e106ea0560e160f.JPG.941c91e12a7eacc85270e7c4b380c18c.JPG

Look where the red arrow points. Does the roller rub on the down side shock device?

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1 hour ago, rph952 said:

My issue is a common one. I read a lengthy exchange here:

if you want us to look at another discussion you have to give us a link which you did not so we Look up the other discussion.

But your issue is a common issue. Newbie? You need to slow down you need to carefully look at everything. But as a newbie you have no idea what you're actually looking at so even if there is a problem you're typically not going to see it anyway. Then you're going to jump to conclusions as to what you think the problem is based on? By the way up to clean the watch again? Yes that's a common one cleaning the watch hoping the problem will fix itself. There's a lot of common things that people do in the beginning when their learning watch repair.

Nice pallet fork picture except we need a side view because the view you show has a beautiful pivot we can't see the other side what does its pivot look like?

39 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

You need to understand what is wrong with the balance/hairspring. Moving the hairspring stud up or down will not make the spring stay parallel. The spring is to be bent and twisted near the stud in order to make it stay as it should. This is normal thing to do when installing new balance/hairspring couple in the movement.

yes the most important thing to learn is what is the problem? then extremely common for all of us is to bend the hairspring. So playing with the stud isn't going to help with a bent hairspring. but ideally you should have a practice hairspring to play with something you can destroy and not care about. Something you can bend and then bend it back. As opposed to your hairspring is bad which is very common but where is it bent?

You basically need to slow down.

 

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I looked at the balance jewel and noticed that when I spin the wheel the upper jewel moves all over the place. I lost a cap jewel and put another cap jewel in its place. I have a donor movement but it was sold minus an upper jewel. How inconvenient. Must be that the one I put in is too small. I don't know if this is all of my problems, but it's one. I'll see if I can find a better fit from my stash of old watches. If not, there's info on how to source a jewel.

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Please allow me to be Dutch for a moment 😉

I do believe earlier on you already got some tips that, when followed up on, would have helped you to find this issue:

On 1/18/2025 at 9:57 PM, caseback said:

What happens if you remove only the shock spring (balance side)?

And:

On 1/18/2025 at 10:28 PM, nevenbekriev said:

The other thing to check is if there is some axial free play of the balance.

Again, and I can't stress that enough: we do want to help. But it would also help (and keep us motivated to offer it) if we see that you actually do something with it..

If I sound a bit harsh: sorry, just living up to the reputation the Dutch have for being direct (blunt..).

Edited by caseback
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