Hands not moving

[SiZi]

I’ve reassembled and lubricated a PUW 1461, and the beat error is within good range and the amplitude is reasonable to, so is the rate. However, nothing can be simple with these vintage watches as per my experience  so the final problem I am facing is that I can turn the watch hands with the crown and stem engaged, it’s super smooth nothing is interrupting movement etc. But, when I wind the watch and leave it the hands don’t move - I come back minutes or hours later to find the watch ticking but the hands haven’t moved. What could be causing this? Thanks, as always! 

[RichardHarris123]

None of the hands move?

[nevenbekriev]

Of course, the second hand moves. @SiZi, time to learn what is cannon pinion for and how it works.

[SiZi]

This doesn’t have a seconds hand so only minute and hours. I figured that if I can turn the hands using the crown and stem then it shouldn’t be a cannon pinion problem. Is my assumption wrong? 

[RichardHarris123]

Yes, your assumption is wrong.  The cannon pinion is slipping. 

It should have sweep seconds. 

[SiZi]

7 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Yes, your assumption is wrong.  The cannon pinion is slipping. 

It should have sweep seconds. 

Understood, thank you. I was wondering when I fit the cannon pinion why it was feeling super loose but I wasnt sure. This might be the issue. I’ll try tightening and report back 

[oldhippy]

Canon pinion problem and check for wear on the intermediate wheels for wear. 

[SiZi]

Reporting back after disassembly and reassembly. Everything seems to be in order. But the problem persists. So, I was curious to see if there was supposed to be a sweeping seconds hand (because I only have an hour and minutes hand that came with the watch), and it seems there is supposed to be a seconds hand - I tested by placing a seconds hand from another movement and it started moving. Ill need to find a seconds hand of the right size to complete this restoration, but in the meantime my question is that could it be because I am not putting the correct seconds hand that this is somehow not allowing the minutes and hours hands to move after I wind the watch up?

Thanks for your help!

[RichardHarris123]

Did you tighten the canon pinion? 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, SiZi said:

Reporting back after disassembly and reassembly. Everything seems to be in order. But the problem persists. So, I was curious to see if there was supposed to be a sweeping seconds hand (because I only have an hour and minutes hand that came with the watch), and it seems there is supposed to be a seconds hand - I tested by placing a seconds hand from another movement and it started moving. Ill need to find a seconds hand of the right size to complete this restoration, but in the meantime my question is that could it be because I am not putting the correct seconds hand that this is somehow not allowing the minutes and hours hands to move after I wind the watch up?

Thanks for your help!

An open ended cannon pinion will nearly always indicate that the movement was designed for a sweep second hand, we are talking mostly wristwatch here and from a point in time when this design became the norm.Exception would be an incorrect cannon pinion fitted. The sweep hand can move independently of the minute and hour hand. 

Lets have a nice picture of the movement's dial side that provides a platform for folk to help from.

What do we know about what the cannon pinion's function is ? To my mind it provides a way to tranfer what the center wheel is doing and convey that to us in an easy visual way, by movement of the minute hand. 

Edited December 29, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches

[Knebo]

On 12/25/2024 at 2:14 PM, nevenbekriev said:

learn what is cannon pinion for and how it works

 

On 12/25/2024 at 2:30 PM, RichardHarris123 said:

Yes, your assumption is wrong.  The cannon pinion is slipping. 

 

On 12/25/2024 at 3:43 PM, oldhippy said:

Canon pinion problem

 

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Did you tighten the canon pinion? 

 

@SiZi, it's pretty clear. Cannon pinion is too loose.

A clear sign is: if you can turn the crown (in time setting position) without noticeable resistance (e.g. turning easily with one finger running along the crown), it's too loose. Find a replacement or tighten it (not too difficult). 

[Neverenoughwatches]

The cannon pinion does that by connecting to the center wheel's arbor on the opposite side of the wheel in this common design. But it connects in a way that also allows another function to be performed....which is......?

.....to enable us to set the time.

How does it enable us to set the time......?

...it enables us to set the time...by the way it connects to the center wheel....Not in a solid permanent way....but in a way that it can be turned and turn the hands without it putting strain on the center wheel and the train...And it does that by way of a friction fit...a friction fit that needs to be the correct amount of friction or thereabouts. That friction can be felt by us through the crown when setting the time...we are feeling the actual friction present between the cannon pinion and the center-wheel's arbor.

So a distinct lack of friction between the cannon pinion and the center wheel arbor can be easily identified by a very loose feel of the crown action during time setting. But why can it be that the lack of friction also might mean that the hands will not move ?.....what is it that is holding the hands still when the center wheel is still turning ?....anyone want to take over...my breakfast in bed is on its way

[Knebo]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

anyone want to take over...my breakfast in bed is on its way

I'll be lazy and copy one of my favourite of Kalle's videos here:

 

[SiZi]

I see now - the crown and stem engage with the canon pinion through a different set of wheels than the gear train. So it’s possible for the hands to move when I use the crown and stem vs the gear train.
The canon pinion does not easily slide over the pivot of the centre wheel - I need to push it and there is a perceptible click when it sits in place. So I assumed that it was a good fit. However after reading all your comments and watching the video it seems the symptoms I am experiencing are typical to a loose canon pinion (including a very easily moving hand when I use the crown and stem). So, I’ll try tightening a bit and rechecking. Thank you, as always! I’ll report back ASAP!

[Neverenoughwatches]

23 minutes ago, SiZi said:

So it’s possible for the hands to move when I use the crown and stem vs the gear train.

Correct, this is when the crown is pulled to the time setting mode and as you surmised...the stem engages with the wheels of the motion works that turn the hands. The train should be unaffected as the rotational friction of the cannon pinion allows it to slip on the centerwheel arbor. Too much friction and the gear train could be strained.

[SiZi]

Tightened the canon pinion and now the hands work as they should  Thank you everyone!