Seiko A-201 caliber stem pulls out when setting time

[rph952]

I've posted on this issue before, but because it has been a long time, I'll start over. After adding the dial/hands/movement into case, the last step is inserting the stem into the movement. However, the stem keeps pulling out when setting the time. I make sure the set lever is in the mainspring winding position when I install the stem. So pulling the stem out moves the set lever to engage the winding pinion to the intermediate wheel for setting time. I can see that the set lever is fully engaged to the stem. Despite everything working prior to casing, it fails after casing. Any ideas?

Edited December 22, 2024 by rph952
typo

[Klassiker]

Possibly the stem is just a tad too short too engage fully with the setting lever when cased up. What happens if you fit the stem in the hands-setting position?

[rph952]

I'm wondering if I should insert the stem before adding the retaining ring. I am using the hand-setting position. It worked before so not sure why it doesn't work now.

[Klassiker]

18 hours ago, rph952 said:

I make sure the set lever is in the mainspring winding position when I install the stem.

 

30 minutes ago, rph952 said:

I am using the hand-setting position.

Which one is it?

 

31 minutes ago, rph952 said:

I'm wondering if I should insert the stem before adding the retaining ring.

If it gives you a bit more wiggle room to fully engage the setting lever with the stem, why not?

[AndyGSi]

As @Klassiker has pointed out, which position are you trying to insert the stem and are you pushing the button while inserting it?

[rph952]

I press in the pin when inserting stem. After checking the stem by pulling and pushing (works great, time setting and winding) I pull the stem to the outer position, then remove it by pressing the pin prior to casing.

I tried inserting the stem both ways, with the setting lever on time setting or wind and neither worked. It sounded like the stem was fully inserted. I can wind, but can't set time.

Chronoglide mentioned adding solder tin to lengthen the stem a tad. I'm just not sure it's short though. There is no gap between the crown and the case.

Thanks

[AndyGSi]

57 minutes ago, rph952 said:

There is no gap between the crown and the case.

There should be some sort of gap no matter how small between the crown and the case.

If the stem is fully engaging to wind then I can't understand why when you pull the crown you can't set the time.

Have you tried putting it in the case without the dial and see what happens?

Edit

Just realised that if the stem isn't inserted full then the spring won't be engaging the gear.

Edited December 23, 2024 by AndyGSi

[Muhammad556]

When pulling the crown out to set the time, you may have pulled it too far or at the wrong angle. This can sometimes cause the crown to move out of the correct position.

[rph952]

 

Several failures later...I have some observations. Notice the stem notch where the set lever is supposed to ride. When the set lever is in the outer position (time setting) the set lever notch is beyond the stem notch. So pressing the set lever spring and then pressing down to seat the stem doesn't work.

When I insert the stem with the set lever in the (winding) inner position and I press the spring lever, then press down on the stem, it seats.

I tried it in that position, but still no luck. I must be doing something wrong.

 

Edited December 24, 2024 by rph952

[Waggy]

Maybe the stud on the underside of the setting lever (the bit that holds the stem) is worn or sheared off ->

Not the most typical failure, but may be good to rule it in/out before you go too far down the road of adjusting/replacing the stem. The image above isn't the same as yours, but you get the idea.

[RichardHarris123]

Unless my eyes are failing, (they are, new glasses ordered), then the setting lever isn't engaged with the stem in either position. 

Edited December 24, 2024 by RichardHarris123

[AndyGSi]

Not sure what you've doing but doing but the setting lever has gone over the spring.

[Neverenoughwatches]

42 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Unless my eyes are failing, (they are, new glasses ordered), then the setting lever is engaged with the stem in either position. 

In the last 2 photos it doesn't look like the pin is located in either case but on sunday it looked like it was in both cases

9 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

Not sure what you've doing but doing but the setting lever has gone over the spring.

You beat me to it Andy the jumper springs from the bridge have 3 points of contact on the setting lever, only 2 of the springs are correctly positioned. This is how that one should be. 

Edited December 24, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches

[RichardHarris123]

Oops, typo.  Edited my post. Told you I needed new glasses.  Hehe. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

Seems overkill to have all that contact

[Klassiker]

5 hours ago, rph952 said:

When the set lever is in the outer position (time setting) the set lever notch is beyond the stem notch. So pressing the set lever spring and then pressing down to seat the stem doesn't work.

When you pull the stem outwards from the position shown in your first photo, the setting lever should spring into the groove and firmly engage. It shouldn't then be possible to remove the stem by simply pulling on it 

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Oops, typo.  Edited my post. Told you I needed new glasses.  Hehe. 

Specsavers matey

There is possibly a lot going on with all that contact...too much tension when the crown is pulled to time set. The hold between the stem groove and set lever pin is probably being overridden due to excess tension and wear...wear due to that amount of tension to begin with Design flaw ? Come across this a lot in cheap movements, poorly designed keyless components as well as everything else.

A bit of tweeking...flling adjustment, polishing and a good sliding grease on the contact points should ease things up a bit.

[AndyGSi]

25 minutes ago, Klassiker said:

When you pull the stem outwards from the position shown in your first photo, the setting lever should spring into the groove and firmly engage. It shouldn't then be possible to remove the stem by simply pulling on it 

You can't just remove the stem without pressing the detent.

[Klassiker]

6 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

You can't just remove the stem without pressing the detent.

So why does the stem pull out when the movement is cased up? That's the problem here.

[Neverenoughwatches]

I might have something, the design of the setting lever is such that there are two jumper springs that come from the bridge. One jumper that catches the set lever pin and another that takes hold of a corner of the set lever...these lock the two positions of the lever. The 3rd spring from the bridge provides lateral tension to keep the set lever in position and may need bending to give more tension to prevent the flipping of the set lever and corner jumper that Andy mentioned and showed earlier. That lateral spring is what is felt when the stem release is pressed on the train side, which should only be pressed in the winding mode otherwise that flip will happen. 

[AndyGSi]

5 hours ago, Klassiker said:

So why does the stem pull out when the movement is cased up? That's the problem here.

Because it isn't engaged correctly in the first place.

[Neverenoughwatches]

I prefer the more traditional name for this type of setting lever depending on who's  books you read ' pull out piece '

Just now, Neverenoughwatches said:

I prefer the more traditional name for this type of setting lever depending on who's  books you read ' pull out piece '

Actually thats a different setting lever, more simple than this .

[Klassiker]

4 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

Because it isn't engaged correctly in the first place.

Clearly, but why does it only happen when cased up, and what is wrong with doing the test I suggested?

[Neverenoughwatches]

We rely heavily on what the OP tells us, which is often the case, is incorrect with newbies.The set lever notch pin  has to be in position with the stem notch, under adequate tension and lacking wear of both components for the wind and time set to function without the pin slipping out. I cant see that placing the dial will affect that, adversely the dial sometimes reduces the amount of movement that the stem release can be pressed .

[rph952]

This is why I like forums! Can use your advice. Try to fix by bending, Leave as is and have a watch that only winds, Find new parts (not a realistic option since this is 1970s). As Neverenoughwatches points out, the set lever slips and overlaps the yoke spring/jumper. I have included a Salvador Dali image of the yoke and the cover plate in case there's advice on where to bend. This is so frustrating because it's ticking to perfection. But this movement has issues. The third wheel needs a minuscule washer for the movement to work and the click spring design is lame. Thanks.