More balance problems

[SiZi]

I am trying to restore a small lot of Soviet vintage watches - RAKETA 2609 and Pobeda/Zim/Slava 2602. On all 3 watches, I am having the same problem - the balance does not do a proper free run when I screw the balance bridge down. After messing up a bunch of hairspring’s I ordered a new one from Cousins. But the problem persists as you can see in the video below. I have tried shimming from different angles and with different thicknesses but it doesn’t help. Any suggestions are welcome, thank you so much!

 

Edited December 14, 2024 by SiZi

[Klassiker]

It looks like a problem with the top pivot. I can't see anything wrong wth the hairspring. Is the chaton sitting correctly? Check the pivot and jewels for dirt and damage. It could also be an end-shake problem, so I am surprised that shimming doesn't help.

[mikepilk]

Looks like it could be a lack of end-shake. How much end-shake is there ? 

Also, the coils are slightly bunched under the stud side, but that's not the cause of the problem.

Edited December 14, 2024 by mikepilk

[oldhippy]

A lot of the old Russian watch movements had a shim under the balance cock, if that is missing you will have problems. I know the  RAKETA 2609 had one. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

As OH said the raketa 2609 and variants often had a brass shim or two under the balance cock. Yours might have its missing, although may just not have had one.

[mbwatch]

I can't quite tell from the picture, but that does not look like a Soviet shock setting to me. It looks like an Incabloc setting, which would not be compatible; I would expect to see the "zig-zag" style shock spring there. Can you show a clear up close photo of the shock spring?

I have never seen an Incabloc setting on a Russian watch, but maybe someone else has.

[AndyGSi]

1 hour ago, mbwatch said:

I can't quite tell from the picture, but that does not look like a Soviet shock setting to me. It looks like an Incabloc setting, which would not be compatible; I would expect to see the "zig-zag" style shock spring there. Can you show a clear up close photo of the shock spring?

I have never seen an Incabloc setting on a Russian watch, but maybe someone else has.

That's the correct spring. 

Edit

@SiZi Can you confirm it is just a 2609

Edited December 14, 2024 by AndyGSi

[nevenbekriev]

Actually, the problem in the video is hairspring pressed on the balance arm. See the white circle.

You can see small amplitude oscillations with high frequency, this is because the hairspring is 'shortened', only small part of it acts as spring.

The way to solve it is to twist the spring near the stud as to lift up the place where it is touching now. This can be done in place, as the tweezers can grasp the spot and in the direction of twisting the tweezers movement is not limited by anything

[mikepilk]

47 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

Actually, the problem in the video is hairspring pressed on the balance arm. See the white circle.

Well spotted @nevenbekriev

Why did we not spot the obvious? 

I, (and all the others who posted above) hang our heads in shame 

[RichardHarris123]

3 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Well spotted @nevenbekriev

Why did we not spot the obvious? 

I, (and all the others who posted above) hang our heads in shame 

I've no idea how old @nevenbekrievis, but his eyesight is better than mine, even with glasses.  Hehe. 

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I've no idea how old @nevenbekrievis, but his eyesight is better than mine, even with glasses.  Hehe. 

  Must be all that carrot juice neven drinks with his breakfast.  

 Lower coil looks good, perhaps spring leaves the stud with wide angle. We best see pic of spring end attached to the stud, before OP ruines another spring. 

 Russians made watch out of parts they had in inventory, so we see variety of makes, not necessarily  variant of a base calib, but  with all sorts of shock system, hairsprings, balances wheel etc, whats  worse is their watches tic  , even kept time. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mbwatch]

2 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

whats  worse is their watches tic  , even kept time. 

LOL for the last week I've had a Raketa movement sitting on my timegrapher, running dead flat at 280°/245° in 4 positions and it isn't even complete. Missing an escape wheel upper cap jewel but still no real variance in DU/DD.

[SiZi]

7 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

Actually, the problem in the video is hairspring pressed on the balance arm. See the white circle.

You can see small amplitude oscillations with high frequency, this is because the hairspring is 'shortened', only small part of it acts as spring.

The way to solve it is to twist the spring near the stud as to lift up the place where it is touching now. This can be done in place, as the tweezers can grasp the spot and in the direction of twisting the tweezers movement is not limited by anything

Thanks everyone! The reason I showed the second video was so that you might be able to see that, because I suspected that was an issue BUT when I remove the balance cock screw it didnt seem to matter that the spring was resting on the arm. But you have now explained that  let me try and address this and report back. Thanks again everyone! 

[nevenbekriev]

Well, this is no problem to see something when it is on computer display and actually enlarged 10 times than normal size. Here the balance behavior is misleading as untightenning the screw makes the problem disappear. In reality one would check the axial free play and understand that this is not the problem. May be my eyes are trained and immediately spotted the high frequency oscillations and when one knows what it means, then He will know where to look at for searching the reason.

You can see russian watches assembled from variety of different looking parts, buy this is because people assemble movements from what they have and sell them, thus You see mixtures of parts made in different factories and in different time periods.

 

[Nucejoe]

3 hours ago, SiZi said:

 when I remove the balance cock screw it didnt seem to matter that the spring was resting on the arm. 

Your watch is likely to have multiple faults.

No doubt the overcoil needs adjust, neven's  point is solid.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 hours ago, mbwatch said:

LOL for the last week I've had a Raketa movement sitting on my timegrapher, running dead flat at 280°/245° in 4 positions and it isn't even complete. Missing an escape wheel upper cap jewel but still no real variance in DU/DD.

I know a lot of people slag Russian watches off for being of poor quality, I have no idea if what is happening in Ukraine influences this . But i think they work pretty well and make good cheap watches for learning on. 

7 hours ago, SiZi said:

Thanks everyone! The reason I showed the second video was so that you might be able to see that, because I suspected that was an issue BUT when I remove the balance cock screw it didnt seem to matter that the spring was resting on the arm. But you have now explained that  let me try and address this and report back. Thanks again everyone! 

It still doesn't explain why tightening the cock screw down almost immediately halts the oscillations. Still appears to be an endshake issue, so you could verify this by removing the hairspring, if you are brave enough ? What were you using to make the shims sizi ?

Or remove the top cap jewel.

[nevenbekriev]

6 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

It still doesn't explain why tightening the cock screw down almost immediately halts the oscillations. Still appears to be an endshake issue, so you could verify this by removing the hairspring, if you are brave enough ? What were you using to make the shims sizi ?

Or remove the top cap jewel.

Rich, untightenning the screw makes the cock go up, the hairspring goes up with the cock too and this is enough for the balance to be released

[Nucejoe]

On 12/14/2024 at 10:16 AM, SiZi said:

 the balance does not do a proper free run when I screw the balance bridge down. 

 According to the OP, tightening cock screw doesn't stop the oscillator ,   just prevents a proper free run.

 Once there is some end shake,  one should investigate , for broken jewel, bent pivot, or rubbing of hairspring on spokes,  balance rim on fork cock, pivot shoulder on chaton and fork on roller table, for possible cause of hinderance to oscillation. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

Rich, untightenning the screw makes the cock go up, the hairspring goes up with the cock too and this is enough for the balance to be released

Thanks Nev, as always it's interesting to know the reasoning behind your prediction. There are often many causes for the same issue, it's becoming less surprising to see you pin-point it first time

23 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Well spotted @nevenbekriev

Why did we not spot the obvious? 

I, (and all the others who posted above) hang our heads in shame 

Lol we shouldn't really Mike, Nev holds some of the most extensive experience and knowledge in the group.

Edited December 15, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches

[RichardHarris123]

Could the stud be in the wrong position? Would pushing the stud up in the holder work? 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 According to the OP, tightening cock screw doesn't stop the oscillator ,   just prevents a proper free run.

 Once there is some end shake,  one should investigate , for broken jewel, bent pivot, or rubbing of hairspring on spokes,  balance rim on fork cock, pivot shoulder on chaton and fork on roller table, for possible cause of hinderance to oscillation. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm dying to know what happens without the hairspring attached.

[nevenbekriev]

13 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Could the stud be in the wrong position? Would pushing the stud up in the holder work? 

Yes, it could help. But the correct solution is to make spring parallel, as it now is tilted. The spring vibrates and changes it's position when position of the movement changes fast, so it is good to have safe distance around it, and it is easier to achieve when the spring position is by the rules - parallel and correctly centered.

49 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

...Nev holds some of the most extensive experience and knowledge in the group.

Well I felt a little overestimated here

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Nev holds some of the most extensive experience and knowledge in the group.

Well I felt a little overestimated here

Aw Nev...are you blushing ?

[nevenbekriev]

6 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Aw Nev...are you blushing ?

A little...

[SiZi]

On 12/14/2024 at 8:01 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

As OH said the raketa 2609 and variants often had a brass shim or two under the balance cock. Yours might have its missing, although may just not have had one.

Mine has score marks instead 

22 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I know a lot of people slag Russian watches off for being of poor quality, I have no idea if what is happening in Ukraine influences this . But i think they work pretty well and make good cheap watches for learning on. 

It still doesn't explain why tightening the cock screw down almost immediately halts the oscillations. Still appears to be an endshake issue, so you could verify this by removing the hairspring, if you are brave enough ? What were you using to make the shims sizi ?

Or remove the top cap jewel.

Let me take videos and share. I suspect it’s an end shake issue because I noticed very little of it as part of my routine inspection checklist and that’s why I tried the balance free run without the screw. Let me try (a) without the hairspring, (b) without the jewel. 

11 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

Yes, it could help. But the correct solution is to make spring parallel, as it now is tilted. The spring vibrates and changes it's position when position of the movement changes fast, so it is good to have safe distance around it, and it is easier to achieve when the spring position is by the rules - parallel and correctly centered.

Well I felt a little overestimated here

I agree, this is an evident issue so I should address it before anything else. I’ll attempt to do this as well before reporting back. 
 

by the way, I managed to get it running free (like it was without the screwed down cock) by adding a thicker brass shim. But since I am using this movement to learn, I want to address the problem properly and not just bandaid it.