I need some encouragement, next step, reboot advice

[durant7]

Winter in NH.  -3c this AM.  Wood stove warming up the shop where I have my starter workbench.   I will list my tools at end.  In truth, I need a push as I am unsure what direction to embark upon next to develop my skills.  Youtube videos make things look easy.  

I bought a ST36 and tore it down, reassembled 2x.  I have revived some quartz movements by buying donor movements and swapping movements.  Good lessons on hand replacement!  My next step was to acquire low cost Caravelle watches on eBay using the "Homer" movement aka Citizen 0421.  They seem to come in 7 and 17 jewel construction. No date, no automatic, simple.  

Some arrived with broken parts, rusted parts.  None of them ran for long.  I tore down 1 all the way.  I left the main spring alone due to lack of tools.  Put it back together and it runs for 1 minute, 5 minutes and then the balance stops abruptly.  I did not lube anything.  I bought 9010 but...have not used it yet.  Cleaning.  White stove fuel.  IPA.  Pegging.  Quickly dipped the shellacked items in IPA, air dry, reassemble.  Click spring kicked my a$$!

Lessons learned.  Keep my work area clear, uncluttered.  Parts holder...I got the icecube tray type...deep...hard to see into each compartment, might try something different next time where parts are all easily seen.  Sticky summer, parts would stick to hand, arm.  Don't leave parts on mat.    

 

My starter stuff.  I don't think it is a lack of tools.  Lack of diagnosing skills.  I was thinking of getting a better iPhone magnification tool to share what I see and get tips, advice.  Switch to old Waltham pocket watches?  Or, tear down all my 11DPs and build one from all the parts?  Buy a missing basket, buy the cleaner solution and get a real clean?  Have my local watch guy just clean and service my main spring?   I am stuck.

Horotech screwdriver set, Dumont tweezers, Timegrapher, Bergeron 4040, Rodico, Pithwood, Bergeron hand tool, L&R Master but no cleaning basket or solutions yet.  Craigslist lucky find.  Cheap oilers, many loupes 2.5 to 10x. Cheap demag.  

[praezis]

13 minutes ago, durant7 said:

I need a push as I am unsure what direction to embark upon next to develop my skills.  Youtube videos make things look easy.  

1.) Acquire a good textbook on watchmaking and read it fully.

2.) …

Frank

[Neverenoughwatches]

A new bigger movement would help you to see more clearly a range of the common faults that you can introduce yourself. Sometimes the easiest of issues can be simply overlooked in a small or average sized movement. And viewing those bigger pieces in action will help you to understand how parts can function in a group setting. This  helps to pinpoint fault quicker through function group testing. Then also to see how those groups interact with each other to make the movement run as one complete unit. And then read a book about it ,and then read it again and and then read it again until it all sinks in and then like me and others do build a small library even and read all those.

[durant7]

Thank you for your response.  Books.  I have the following to be delivered Monday.  

Practical Watch Repairing by De Carle.

I was also looking at ordering The Watch Repairer's Manual 3rd Edition by Fried.  Sounds like I should just buy it as well and await other recommendations for good reads.

As for a larger watch.  I was thinking about a Waltham pocket watch.  As I have a family Waltham that needs love.  I would not work on it unless I mastered a practice 1425 movement.  It arrived and I put it away for a day my skills are more developed.  What would you suggest as a larger format practice watch?  The ST36 ran when arrived, ran when put back together.  I learned part identification, organization, bench height, patience.  But no diagnosis.  Once put back together the Timegrapher results were the same.  

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, durant7 said:

Thank you for your response.  Books.  I have the following to be delivered Monday.  

Practical Watch Repairing by De Carle.

I was also looking at ordering The Watch Repairer's Manual 3rd Edition by Fried.  Sounds like I should just buy it as well and await other recommendations for good reads.

As for a larger watch.  I was thinking about a Waltham pocket watch.  As I have a family Waltham that needs love.  I would not work on it unless I mastered a practice 1425 movement.  It arrived and I put it away for a day my skills are more developed.  What would you suggest as a larger format practice watch?  The ST36 ran when arrived, ran when put back together.  I learned part identification, organization, bench height, patience.  But no diagnosis.  Once put back together the Timegrapher results were the same.  

Seeing as though you were able to reassemble the movement and have the same timegrapher readings...which were ?  there was no diagnosis to be made. So very well done for achieving that . I started with a very different route, and so worked on old small watches, which I still prefer, why make things easy . I still believe this way worked for me, and pushed me to learn quickly, I love reading books. That might not be for everyone but I feel it was right for me.

When i get home, i will post pictures of the books I have. A lot of information overlaps but each author has his own niche and little extra tricks up his sleeve. Its easy to see who read someone else's material

[tomh207]

I found this book very good to kick things off

maintaining and repairing mechanical watches, a practical guide 

Mark W. Wiles

ISBN 978 1 78500 155 0

this is a more modern book, 2016, and is well illustrated with good photography and a few of us have recommended it here.

I would also recommend our host Mark’ online courses. These are inexpensive and get to the heart of servicing and repair of movements.

 

Tom

[Bonefixer]

I’d avoid pocket watches and Japanese movements for now. Stick to old Swiss 17 jeweled basic movements. I buy them on ebay generally for less than £20, and am now pretty familiar with them, such that I could put all the parts in a box, mix them up, and rebuild the movement. 
 

Doing this I’ve learned a lot and understand how everything works and how all the parts interact. My skills are improving - I rarely drop or lose bits - and when it comes to more complicated watches an understanding of the basics  helps diagnose faults more easily.

Why avoid pocket watches? They’re often hand built or adjusted so that you may not easily get replacement parts that just slot in, and the escapements may not be standard Swiss Lever. 
 

And Japanese watches? They’re different. I have stripped down Seikos and Miyotas, and will be ok if you’re used to them, but I’m really struggling with a Citizen chronograph as it’s non-standard construction compared to the Swiss ones I’m more familiar with. 

[Mercurial]

As far as book recommendations, I recommend “The Swiss Watch Repairer’s Manual” by Hans Jendritzki. 

It is more expensive than most of the other books that are often recommended, but it won’t teach you any bad habits that you’ll have to unlearn later. 

DeCarle’s books are a bit dated, but contain plenty of good information. 

Another excellent resource, as @JohnR725 often suggests and provides links to is the Joseph School of Watchmaking, which was the textbook for the Bulova School of Watchmaking. 

You can find all sections of the book under the heading “Joseph School of Watch Making” here.

In addition, I’d recommend the YouTube channels “Chronoglide” and “Watch Repair Tutorials”. 

I hope that helps,

Mark

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 minute ago, Mercurial said:

As far as book recommendations, I recommend “The Swiss Watch Repairer’s Manual” by Hans Jendritzki. 

It is more expensive than most of the other books that are often recommended, but it won’t teach you any bad habits that you’ll have to unlearn later. 

DeCarle’s books are a bit dated, but contain plenty of good information. 

Another excellent resource, as @JohnR725 often suggests and provides links to is the Joseph School of Watchmaking, which was the textbook for the Bulova School of Watchmaking. 

You can find all sections of the book under the heading “Joseph School of Watch Making” here.

In addition, I’d recommend the YouTube channels “Chronoglide” and “Watch Repair Tutorials”. 

I hope that helps,

Mark

Good suggestions Mark, I also have this book by Jendritzki. Been searching for a secondhand copy of his escapement adjustment. As an alternative to this check out Wilkinsons practical lessons on the lever escapement...I seem to remember the original copies by he and his wife could be bought with the infamous large demonstration model of the escapement.  

[JohnR725]

14 hours ago, durant7 said:

As for a larger watch.  I was thinking about a Waltham pocket watch

Pocket watches can present interesting challenges depending upon when they were made. In other words in the early days of watches they were trying to get around patents so I have clever methods of doing things and clever is not necessarily in your best interest of your learning watch repair. Then Waltham has some interesting mainspring barrels with the word interesting and not really being good for the watchmaker. It means typically after slightly modify the mainspring otherwise it's never going to catch but it depends on which Waltham were discussing.

5 minutes ago, Mercurial said:

You can find all sections of the book under the heading “Joseph School of Watch Making” here.

Is actually quite a few things to see on the site including. Basically a U.S. Army training manual of watch repair which hasn't really changed much since 1945.

1945 TM9-1575 War Department Technical Manual

6 minutes ago, Mercurial said:

As far as book recommendations, I recommend “The Swiss Watch Repairer’s Manual” by Hans Jendritzki. 

Then if you have a choice go for the older editions as it tends to cover things like making stuff where the later addition doesn't. But any addition is still outstanding to have.

[Neverenoughwatches]

Actually that was Barkus husband and wife team.

Not Wilkinson 

[JohnR725]

6 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Barkus

14 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

original copies by he and his wife could be bought with the infamous large demonstration model of the escapement.  

Unfortunately purchasing the escapement model requires deep pockets. But they do show up from time to time on eBay.

[oldhippy]

I always recommend to start with a pocket watch, they are bigger and very similar to a standard gents watch movement only a lot bigger. Practise taking it all apart and putting it all back this give you good practise using your watchmakers screwdrivers, tweezers and your eye glass. Do not bother with pocket watches that have fusee movements they are so different. Move on to large gents movements and learn everything on them so in the end you could take it completely apart in your sleep and put it all back, then Gents date movements, Gents day and date, then Gents auto, then Gents day then day and date. Gents gents chronograph. Then move on to ladies watches in the same manner. You can learn all about mainspring fitting and replacement as you go the same goes for stems and buttons. When you have achieved this it is time to learn all there is about the balance and its workings such as hairspring work the balance staff replacing and making, jewel replacement. I think you get the picture. You will never learn everything because there is always something new that comes into the workshop. I have left out the very complicated watches. If you would like to learn about fusee watches I can help you there. If you want to go into clocks I have a vast knowledge of antique clocks. As you learn that is the time to add more tools, buy the best you can afford. Books can only help you so far they never cover problems you will come across. I believe you have to get your hands dirty. Good luck.      

[durant7]

Getting one's hands dirty.  Well, today I decided to tear down and re assemble the ST36.  Certainly you experts have both written and read a lot about this Chinese clone of the ETA 6497.  All I can say is wow.  Timegrapher dial down reports +1 s/d 325 Amplitude .1ms BE and auto detect reports 21,600/52 degrees. HA! If they were all this easy!!  

I then pivoted to a pet project.  My beloved Timex M cell purchased in 1983.  Mine has died but I have now a 3rd donor from eBay that seem to stop and start.  Just sitting quietly, for a week she will not budge and I lost interest.  This AM it was running.  So, I used my cheap oilers and my 9010 for the first time and dabbed the pivots I could see.  Seems like a front loader so...she was snapped back together and 5 hours later she is still running on my wrist. 

I added Maintaining and Repairing Mechanical Watches, a Practical Guide by Mark W. Wiles to my ordered books.  Three should be a start.  The Hans Jendritzki book looks to be a bit harder to source.  I added it to my wish list.   And yes, the Bulova series and the WWII tech bulletin have been found.  The British Horological Institute's Treatise on The Practical Lubrication of Clocks and Watches is also printed and skimmed.

But these dang Citizen 0421...perhaps more reading about the balance wheel and escapement.  I think this is my area of struggle.   Perhaps I should follow the advice, Japanese watches can be hard.  Swiss, easier.  I lucked into a AS 1586 in a Swiss Caravelle and a ETA 2372 in a Belfonte.  They both run but do lose time over 24 hours.  Likely gummy inside.  I don't tear them down because I fear if I ping something I will be hard pressed to find a replacement. 

The pocket watch debate.  I have a Waltham 1425 movement from 1914 from eBay.  Practice movement for my Grandfather's 1425 should I muster the courage.  Looks like a lot of parts, screws, pieces.  I decided to inventory it and put it away.  

Await books.  Will look for $10 no name Swiss watch movements.

Oldhippy.  I won't mention my clocks.  I have a ST89 waiting as my first test.  I have to purchase some spring retainers, build a spring unwind tool, and likely more tools that don't cross over to watches.  I have often asked myself if I should start clocks first, then do watches.  But....I started watches.  And here I am.  An ST36 that runs great after three teardowns.  And 11DPs that thumb their nose at me.  I am trying to keep clocks as a "later" project.  

[Knebo]

53 minutes ago, durant7 said:

Getting one's hands dirty.  Well, today I decided to tear down and re assemble the ST36.  Certainly you experts have both written and read a lot about this Chinese clone of the ETA 6497.  All I can say is wow.  Timegrapher dial down reports +1 s/d 325 Amplitude .1ms BE and auto detect reports 21,600/52 degrees. HA! If they were all this easy!!  

With all the good and valuable reading recommended here, I strongly support your spirit of continuing to practice and getting your hands dirty. Keep going! 

Just a little thing. The lift angle for ST36 should be 44 degrees. So the true amplitude is quite a bit lower. But still good. 

 

58 minutes ago, durant7 said:

So, I used my cheap oilers and my 9010 for the first time

Does this mean you've never been lubricating your watches when assembling? If not, you should really focus on practicing that. Correct oils/grease, oiling points and quantities are a big and fundamental thing to learn. 

[durant7]

Well...  Correct.  I have not begun my oil/lubrication journey.  Not sure where I read that beginners should just strip, clean, reassemble dry and see if the watch will run.  I guess this is the "safe zone" moment as everyone thinks "what a dummy".  I can handle that.   Below is what I have for oiling.  9010 and this beginner set.  I assume the colors have a standard meaning.  Smallest to largest is Black, Blue, Red, Green, Yellow.  More learning.  Lubrication is such a debated topic.  If I were to ask what to put in the last two cups, as a next step to 9010, will I get 8 different responses? Some grease I know.  If I recall I concluded 9010 was a first best decision and I guess I kicked the grease decision down the road.  Seems the time has come to buy two more to start.  

This came with a clock I picked up at a garage sale.  

 

[mbwatch]

The oiler colors are not really standardized, though I might guess the black one is the finest. Maybe.

In addition to your light 9010, get some HP 1300 as a medium oil and Moebius 9501 or 9504 as a heavy grease for sliding and high tension keyless works parts.

Or Moebius D5 and Molykote dx as the cheaper alternatives to those, though the 1300 and 9501 will have a longer lifespan in your watches.

But the trio of a light oil for the balance and fast wheels, a medium oil for the slower wheels and rotating parts outside the train, and a grease for high tension or sliding parts is mostly sufficient to get started.

You should be able to find a service guide for the 6497/6498 movements which will show you exactly where to put those three lubricants on your ST36.

 

Here, I'll save you the effort ETA 6497.pdf

Edited December 9, 2024 by mbwatch

[linux]

Being an old guy who already had a career I just wanted to know more about this cool hobby.  I was not going to watch school but I did think I needed some instruction aside from youtube videos (which are useful.)  I paid for two courses which aren't terribly expensive imho.  (That will come with buying tools  )

1. Mark Lovick's courses are part of this site.  They have great video resolution and Mark's narration is clear/concise.  

2. Watch Repair Tutorials.  This is Alex Hamilton's site.  Like Mark, he's a professional watchmaker.  He has a "lot" of useful, free videos and a couple courses.  I think he's a bit heavier on theory where Mark's are easier to digest visually. https://watchrepairtutorials.com/

Also, as mentioned above there is a ton of good material on the chronoglide site.  Kalle Slaap is a Dutch watchmaker with a good sense of humor.

 

 

[Knebo]

6 hours ago, durant7 said:

I guess this is the "safe zone" moment as everyone thinks "what a dummy".  I can handle that. 

No worries about that. We're not judging. We're all here to learn.

 

6 hours ago, durant7 said:

I have not begun my oil/lubrication journey.

The title of your thread included "next step". I'd say, this is most definitely your next step. Without any lubrication, it's not surprising that watches don't run, or stop after a little while.

 

6 hours ago, durant7 said:

I assume the colors have a standard meaning.  Smallest to largest is Black, Blue, Red, Green, Yellow. 

Find the smallest oiler (probably black) and work with that one only, for a start. Better to apply small quantities twice, than overdoing it at the first go. Adding is easier than removing.

 

6 hours ago, mbwatch said:

The oiler colors are not really standardized, though I might guess the black one is the finest. Maybe.

In addition to your light 9010, get some HP 1300 as a medium oil and Moebius 9501 or 9504 as a heavy grease for sliding and high tension keyless works parts.

Or Moebius D5 and Molykote dx as the cheaper alternatives to those, though the 1300 and 9501 will have a longer lifespan in your watches.

But the trio of a light oil for the balance and fast wheels, a medium oil for the slower wheels and rotating parts outside the train, and a grease for high tension or sliding parts is mostly sufficient to get started.

You should be able to find a service guide for the 6497/6498 movements which will show you exactly where to put those three lubricants on your ST36.

 

Here, I'll save you the effort ETA 6497.pdf

I agree that this is sound advice on the lubricants to get. I got the same ones and they'll last until I die. Don't think about price per gram or ml. Only the absolute price of the smallest available quantity matters. You'll never need more than the tiniest bottle. E.g. CousinsUK sells 2ml of HP1300 for 17.55 GBP and 20ml of D5 for 27.95 GBP. So HP1300 is way more expensive per ml, but in absolute terms it's cheaper. And 2ml will last you a lifetime.

 

7 hours ago, durant7 said:

If I were to ask what to put in the last two cups, as a next step to 9010, will I get 8 different responses?

You may be partly right with that, but I don't think there's a debate about the 4 essential types of lubricants:

- thin oil = 9010. Check.

- thick oil = e.g. HP1300 (which, I think, most would recommend)

- grease = 9504 is excellent, but not the cheapest (but I think, it's worth it)

- special oil/grease for the pallet fork = 9415. Unfortunately, there's a forth. I've heard that some people use 9010, but it's not ideal, I think. 

...and when you get to automatic watches, you need a breaking grease. Later..

..and Epilame/Fixodrop. Well, this may be another debate.

 

 

[Mercurial]

12 hours ago, durant7 said:

The Hans Jendritzki book looks to be a bit harder to source.

Professor Jendritzki’s books are available in a few languages, which I feel speaks to their quality. 

If you search for his name on eBay, you’ll find the watch repair book in English, for sale brand new from Germany. 

@JohnR725 is right when he says that early editions are the most desirable and contain extra content, but the early editions are much more difficult to come by and tend to fetch higher prices, unless you get lucky. 

23 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Been searching for a secondhand copy of his [Jendritzki] escapement adjustment.

I kept getting outbid for secondhand copies of Watch Adjustment on eBay, and the few secondhand copies in English for sale elsewhere were unaffordable for me. 

After narrowly missing out on a cheap copy listed as But it Now on eBay, I started searching eBay for this book at least once a day, every day, and it paid dividends within a few months. 

For those interested, there are a few new copies of Watch Adjustment available from the current publisher, for 74CHF + postage, which is less than I’ve seen copies of the same edition sell for on eBay. 

Best regards,

Mark

[tomh207]

@Mercurial damn you for being so helpful! I just ordered Jendritzki‘s watch repair and watchmakers lathe books on eBay, oh well mince and tatties for Xmas dinner.

will review and report in the book thread over Xmas.

 

Tom