How was this 1930's dial made?

[PQR]

Just out of curiosity, can anyone tell me how the beautiful embossed effect was produced on this dial?

 

I was surprised on removing it to find that the pretty surface doesn't noticeably protrude above what looks like brass. Could it be engraving on a mass produced watch?

The watch has a 10.5''' AS movement bearing the overlapping TR shield - I read in an old post from the late great Ranfft that ESA used this "almost only" in 1936. The case is a gold Dennison Cachecase hallmarked 1929. The watch was bought new in Newcastle, England, and the only other branding on it is a "Rotary" logo on the ratchet wheel.

 

Whether or not you have any insights on the dial, I hope you enjoyed the pictures! If the answer should be obvious, then forgive me but I am all the more eager to learn it. Thanks and best wishes!

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, PQR said:

Just out of curiosity, can anyone tell me how the beautiful embossed effect was produced on this dial?

 

I was surprised on removing it to find that the pretty surface doesn't noticeably protrude above what looks like brass. Could it be engraving on a mass produced watch?

The watch has a 10.5''' AS movement bearing the overlapping TR shield - I read in an old post from the late great Ranfft that ESA used this "almost only" in 1936. The case is a gold Dennison Cachecase hallmarked 1929. The watch was bought new in Newcastle, England, and the only other branding on it is a "Rotary" logo on the ratchet wheel.

 

Whether or not you have any insights on the dial, I hope you enjoyed the pictures! If the answer should be obvious, then forgive me but I am all the more eager to learn it. Thanks and best wishes!

Its engine turned, known as a guillochè dial. Thats beautiful.

Yes you are correct its engraved but not by hand.

[praezis]

14 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Its engine turned, known as a guillochè dial. Thats beautiful.

Yes you are correct its engraved but not by hand.

I rather suppose: simply stamped with a die.

Frank

[oldhippy]

This is the type of dial you can clean up. All you need is a clean rubber and rub it over the dial and it will clean it. The name on the dial is the shop that sold it. As Neverenoughwatches has said it is guillochè if you type in guillochè into google and click on videos there are a few to watch to see how it is made. 

Edited December 6, 2024 by oldhippy

[CYCLOPS]

Machinery was different back then, probably a rose engine type lathe, check this video out....

 

[praezis]

Really regret to have to disappoint you all 
Not this mass produced dial was made by Guilloche but the die was. Guilloche will not produce tiny pits, separated by crossing walls - but the contrary in the die will.

Frank

[spectre6000]

I'm with praezis on this. That's stamped and painted with silvering. Look at the transitions between the high and low elements; the details shift with the topology, and the color is independent of it. Get too agressive with the cleaning, and you could very well find yourself learning how to silver dials. Resilvering very selectively like that dial seems pretty challenging to me, but I hate painting with a passion.

Edited December 6, 2024 by spectre6000

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 hours ago, praezis said:

Really regret to have to disappoint you all 
Not this mass produced dial was made by Guilloche but the die was. Guilloche will not produce tiny pits, separated by crossing walls - but the contrary in the die will.

Frank

I didn't even know this was a thing, thanks for the correction Frank, can actually see the difference now  that you've explained it . Machine stamped ?

Must be , you can see the circular pattern quite clearly, still beautiful and skillful .

[PQR]

Thanks, everyone, that makes sense. Being addicted to Youtube videos on watchmaking, I was familiar with engine turning but knew it would be far too expensive for this watch.

Next question: How was the stamping die produced, given 1930's technology? If the original is cut with something like a rose engine, the material would have to be too soft to stand much use as a stamp. I've spent a little while googling, and the best I found was here which suggests that there exists a process to slowly engrave a steel die (with a rotating tool?) from a hand-made master (makes me think of videos I've seen where pantographs are employed in dial making). 

If anyone knows about that, I'm still curious! 

On 12/6/2024 at 8:54 AM, oldhippy said:

This is the type of dial you can clean up. All you need is a clean rubber and rub it over the dial and it will clean it.

I believe you, but what is it that you can recognise about this dial that tells you it'll work here? I have just enough experience to know the general truth of the dire warnings about touching dials at all.

This was my Great Aunt's watch so I'm being very careful. At least I can stop the gold case from being its doom for one more generation! I'm busy servicing it - hopefully it'll be a nice talking point for my wife to wear on special occasions.