Mainspring Winding - getting the hook in

[LMS]

I've got an issue in pushing the hook in a mainspring winder. Either Bergeon or Chinese clones.

From Mark, Alex Hamilton or any number of YouTubers; it's simple. Stop short, brass tweezers and push the end of the spring in. Simple as.

I am just having a massive issue doing this. I've tried all angles and approaches and in the end if it goes in it does so with a lot of force or by lifting the winder up a little (which risks mainspring birdsnest o'clock).

Am I doing something stupid? Has anyone faced this issue, foundboutvwhst they're doing wrong and what the fix is?

I just ruined my first main spring. It's for an st3600 (so hardly delicate), and I was using the correct size Bergeon winder (for the ETA 6497.1), so it's not like there should have been a room issue.

All help gratefully received.

[AndyGSi]

Can you post photos as I'm not 100% what you mean?

Are you talking about not being able to get the bridle end of the mainspring into the winder?

[LMS]

Yes exactly that. I wind the spring and stop before the end. Everyone else I see do this then takes brass tweezers and feeds the end of the spring and bridle into the winder barrel. I really struggle to do this.

Here's a screenshot of Marshal doing this without skipping a heartbeat.

What am I doing wrong.

 

 

[AndyGSi]

It can take a little practice but shouldn't be that hard.

Can you confirm what mainspring have you got.

[LMS]

So I just screwed up a ST3600 (6497 clone) mainspring. But tbh, I've struggled with this with both automatic and manual mainsprings with the same issue.

 

Like I say, everyone I see do this does so without an issue. How do I end up having to using brute strength or lift the winder handle (at great risk of spectacular uncoil). 

 

I have tried articulating the bridle in what I would think would be a logical manner to get it into the winder.

[AndyGSi]

5 minutes ago, LMS said:

So I just screwed up a ST3600 (6497 clone) mainspring. But tbh, I've struggled with this with both automatic and manual mainsprings with the same issue.

 

Like I say, everyone I see do this does so without an issue. How do I end up having to using brute strength or lift the winder handle (at great risk of spectacular uncoil). 

 

I have tried articulating the bridle in what I would think would be a logical manner to get it into the winder.

The question is what mainspring and you trying to fit in this case.

Is it the correct length or is it too long and that's why you're having problems?

You say the winder is for a ETA 6497.1. Can you confirm the diameter.

[LMS]

OD of the winder is 14.6mm.

ID 13.22mm.

It's the Bergeon no.11

[AndyGSi]

And what is the part no of the mainspring you're trying to fit?

[LMS]

No idea. It's a new seagull movement. It's the factory fitted mainspring. So no question we have a part mismatch.

[nickelsilver]

Are you keeping tension on the spring (with the handle) once you stop? If you let it relax, it will not go in.

 

As it seems you are winding an automatic spring, you can simply wind it all the way in. The caveats are: the winder must be large enough to fit the whole spring*, and, the hook on the winder must be of reasonable size. On many winders, including Bergeon and including "vintage" Bergeon and other identical ones, the hook is way too long. The risk is, under high tension, it can kink the spring. And it kinks it over multiple coils, and the spring is ruined.

 

*You want a winder that will wind the spring to a diameter that's just small enough to fit in the barrel. Sometimes you have to measure the ID of the winder and barrel to get a match- as sometimes one size smaller is just too small to wind the whole spring in.

[LMS]

Absolutely I am not....

"Are you keeping tension on the spring (with the handle) once you stop? If you let it relax, it will not go in."

Maybe it's as simple as this. Goodness knows how many movement service videos I've watched. I'm follow both Mark's and Alex Hamilton's courses, and unless I'm wrong, I've not heard this tip (ok I concede it's more likely I wasn't listening, but I really can't recall it).

 

 

[nickelsilver]

7 minutes ago, LMS said:

Absolutely I am not....

"Are you keeping tension on the spring (with the handle) once you stop? If you let it relax, it will not go in."

Maybe it's as simple as this. Goodness knows how many movement service videos I've watched. I'm follow both Mark's and Alex Hamilton's courses, and unless I'm wrong, I've not heard this tip (ok I concede it's more likely I wasn't listening, but I really can't recall it).

 

 

So here's the trick: if you keep the tension where it was, there might be enough tension to whip the bridle around and poke it back out the slot, usually snapping it off. I let down 1/2 or 1 turn, and try. It does take some effort, and, like everything else, some practice.

 

But that's for a manual spring. With an automatic, just wind it in. As long as the bridle is on the inner part of the spring there's no risk.

[mikepilk]

With manual springs, I find that the bridle often opens up and slides past the slot in the winder. In this case you have to ease off the tension as described above, then pull the the spring back out so that the bridle is clear. Then squeeze the bridle together with tweezers and feed it back in. 

[LMS]

Cheers all, and nickelsilver, this is 100% exactly what happened:

"if you keep the tension where it was, there might be enough tension to whip the bridle around and poke it back out the slot, usually snapping it off"

 

New MO, keep pressure on the winder. Plan B if that fails, ease off half a turn, etc. I confess this was sort of what I was trying, but I think I relaxed the tension too much. Thinking about it mechanically that's not going to work (sadly I'm a Chartered Engineer so you would have hoped I'd get the mechanics that without wind, the spring will relax and compress against the barrel wall- sigh). Thanks again all for the suport, it's most appreciated.

[mbwatch]

It helps to keep in mind also that the hobbyist youtube guys (with some exceptions) do not show you their mistakes. You don't see the 2 or 3 attempts to get the mainspring properly hooked onto the arbor before cranking on in and maybe the failed attempt to slot the bridle end in before unwinding and redoing it. I assure you these things happen from time to time but don't make the final edit.

[nickelsilver]

Just a note- I've filed down hooks on many winders. The hook has to be nominally the same height as the spring thickness, but a little shorter works fine too. Once the first wrap of wind comes around it's going nowhere, and this strength increases as you wind.

[mbwatch]

54 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

The hook has to be nominally the same height as the spring thickness, but a little shorter works fine too

This is an interesting metric. I have some of the old K&D adjustable winders which I can't use for hardly anything - the arbors are too small for pocket watches, but the hooks are super long and can't be used with alloy mainsprings. Maybe I should try filing one. Though the hook pins are also just too big in diameter for most modern wristwatch springs. Not sure how I would address that.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, LMS said:

Absolutely I am not....

"Are you keeping tension on the spring (with the handle) once you stop? If you let it relax, it will not go in."

Maybe it's as simple as this. Goodness knows how many movement service videos I've watched. I'm follow both Mark's and Alex Hamilton's courses, and unless I'm wrong, I've not heard this tip (ok I concede it's more likely I wasn't listening, but I really can't recall it).

 

 

If you release the handle completely when the bridle has reached the barrel slot, then what you've done ; is fill up all the outer diameter barrel space, and there will be no room left for the bridle to fit in. Do as Nicklesilver suggests ,I  also do this as I suppose many others do, and just back off the handle a few revolutions as the bridle approaches the barrel slot. What this does is to release the spring's  tension somewhat but not so much as to not leave room for the bridle to go in,  but also makes the bridle's final approach less aggressive, so the hook doesn't ram into the outside of the barrel slot. I think you'll find that a lot easier when you pick up the idea.

[mbwatch]

(other than to push out the pin and craft a smaller custom one)

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, mbwatch said:

It helps to keep in mind also that the hobbyist youtube guys (with some exceptions) do not show you their mistakes. You don't see the 2 or 3 attempts to get the mainspring properly hooked onto the arbor before cranking on in and maybe the failed attempt to slot the bridle end in before unwinding and redoing it. I assure you these things happen from time to time but don't make the final edit.

Absolutely it does,and not many are honest enough to leave in their mistakes. Might seem harsh , but those are the ones I have unsubscribed to. I think I'm down to 3 left that I will watch

[JohnR725]

11 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

Just a note- I've filed down hooks on many winders. The hook has to be nominally the same height as the spring thickness, but a little shorter works fine too. Once the first wrap of wind comes around it's going nowhere, and this strength increases as you wind.

am attaching a PDF and here's a image from the PDF. When dealing with modern mainspring is exactly as quoted above the hook cannot stick out very far at all. The mainspring winders set at one time had other types of samples which I'll show in the picture below for vintage blued steel Springs and it sticks out whole lot. So if you have a vintage set you need to order replacement handles because otherwise it's not going to work at all. It's not like one set a handles works for everything. Then the modern handles usually don't work with the vintage blued steel Springs.

here's a picture of what the modern handles should look like

vintage handle notice that the flux sticks up quite a bit which is really needed for blued steel Springs.

than a handful for a different type of mainspring winders which I typically use for pocketwatch Springs. Notice it's a pin and it sticks up quite a bit. If you get the spring wound in super tight with anything that sticks up like this you are not removing the handle. Which is why your mainspring does have to be properly sized for the winder

Mainspring winders 7023 A B C.pdf

15 hours ago, LMS said:

Here's a screenshot of Marshal doing this without skipping a heartbeat.

one of the things I find interesting is teaching people in real life versus teaching people by video on YouTube? I wonder if it's possible that people on YouTube forget that they have a live audience and things don't always work as nice and smoothly as they show. If you're in a classroom situation you make a mistake it becomes apparent extremely fast that there is a problem. But And making videos perfect video is because her supposedly perfect you don't get the feedback of if you made a mistake typically. Instead you get all the people praising you for how wonderful things are

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

14 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

am attaching a PDF and here's a image from the PDF. When dealing with modern mainspring is exactly as quoted above the hook cannot stick out very far at all. The mainspring winders set at one time had other types of samples which I'll show in the picture below for vintage blued steel Springs and it sticks out whole lot. So if you have a vintage set you need to order replacement handles because otherwise it's not going to work at all. It's not like one set a handles works for everything. Then the modern handles usually don't work with the vintage blued steel Springs.

here's a picture of what the modern handles should look like

vintage handle notice that the flux sticks up quite a bit which is really needed for blued steel Springs.

than a handful for a different type of mainspring winders which I typically use for pocketwatch Springs. Notice it's a pin and it sticks up quite a bit. If you get the spring wound in super tight with anything that sticks up like this you are not removing the handle. Which is why your mainspring does have to be properly sized for the winder

Mainspring winders 7023 A B C.pdf 1.89 MB · 0 downloads

one of the things I find interesting is teaching people in real life versus teaching people by video on YouTube? I wonder if it's possible that people on YouTube forget that they have a live audience and things don't always work as nice and smoothly as they show. If you're in a classroom situation you make a mistake it becomes apparent extremely fast that there is a problem. But And making videos perfect video is because her supposedly perfect you don't get the feedback of if you made a mistake typically. Instead you get all the people praising you for how wonderful things are

 

Exactly,  how are you going to learn when problems are going to happen and how you are going to avoid them and fix them if the youtube guys edit them all out. An un-hidden  problem in a classroom is going to have lots of discussion around it and the outcome of the student class all learning from it. And most likely the teacher also, as the students have ideas and can also teach.

[GPrideaux]

I do not intend to become a YouTuber, but if I ever did my channel would be called "Mistakes were made" and would be principally about my stuff-ups, what I learn from them, and how I recover.

[HectorLooi]

Another tip I have for easier winding into the barrel is to lightly lubricate the mainspring with grease.

[Malocchio]

On 12/4/2024 at 10:26 PM, mbwatch said:

This is an interesting metric. I have some of the old K&D adjustable winders which I can't use for hardly anything - the arbors are too small for pocket watches, but the hooks are super long and can't be used with alloy mainsprings. Maybe I should try filing one. Though the hook pins are also just too big in diameter for most modern wristwatch springs. Not sure how I would address that.

Filing is a good option. I filed one so that it releases when winding backwards. Adjustable winder is a really great but for some reason forgotten invention.