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Cannon pinion removal "on the cheap"

Bill2024
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Bill2024 Member

Bill2024

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Hi All,

I have just started the course and am currently getting tools together.

I understand the logic of not "cheaping-out" on the tools you use the most often (screwdrivers/tweezers) but I was wondering about options for removing cannon pinions. The standard tool seems to be the Burgeon 4854 but that's nearly £100 and would not get used much at the moment. Would it be acceptable to go the Amazon route and get one of the cheap Presto style tools, which cost more like £10, to save a bit of money early in my watch repairing journey?

best,

Bill 

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tomh207 Distinguished Member

tomh207

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If you’re wanting to work on wristwatches the Burgeon 4854 is not really useful as it cannot grip below 1mm. The presto tool will work fine, for the copies we unfortunately get back to varying quality at the £10 end of the market. Certain types of tweezers can be used and often are, I have also heard of pin vices being used but have not tried that. 
 

Tom

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mbwatch Super WRT Addict

mbwatch

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I use my heaviest tweezers all the time, carefully. And I have not had a problem with a bent arbor or seconds pinion or broken center wheel jewel. I do know that these are possible bad outcomes, but again I am slow and careful to pull straight up. The one exception to this was a brand new ST36 movement which had such a tight cannon pinion that I ended up having to use hand levers - tweezers were not strong enough.

Some particular youtube guys make a Really Big Deal of the cannon pinion removal tool, but it is a luxury you can get on without for a long time.

In truth, breaking a center wheel jewel is probably the thing that would go wrong most readily when pulling a cannon pinion with tweezers.  Maybe on a chronograph with a very long 4th wheel pivot it would be easy to bend if you don't pull straight.

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Bill2024 Member

Bill2024

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1 hour ago, tomh207 said:

If you’re wanting to work on wristwatches the Burgeon 4854 is not really useful as it cannot grip below 1mm. The presto tool will work fine, for the copies we unfortunately get back to varying quality at the £10 end of the market. Certain types of tweezers can be used and often are, I have also heard of pin vices being used but have not tried that. 
 

Tom

Interesting about the Burgeon 4854 - I thought that was the "magic wand" of cannon pinion removal!

You're right about the quality of the £10 price point of course, but maybe for a tenner its worth a try.

1 hour ago, mbwatch said:

I use my heaviest tweezers all the time, carefully. And I have not had a problem with a bent arbor or seconds pinion or broken center wheel jewel. I do know that these are possible bad outcomes, but again I am slow and careful to pull straight up. The one exception to this was a brand new ST36 movement which had such a tight cannon pinion that I ended up having to use hand levers - tweezers were not strong enough.

Some particular youtube guys make a Really Big Deal of the cannon pinion removal tool, but it is a luxury you can get on without for a long time.

In truth, breaking a center wheel jewel is probably the thing that would go wrong most readily when pulling a cannon pinion with tweezers.  Maybe on a chronograph with a very long 4th wheel pivot it would be easy to bend if you don't pull straight.

I might experiment with the tweezers but, given I'm a total newbie, the risks you mention of this method seem all too likely! 

I do like the idea of the hand levers though; somehow that seems safer that the tweezer approach and less likely to bend/break something.

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tomh207 Distinguished Member

tomh207

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5 minutes ago, Bill2024 said:

Interesting about the Burgeon 4854 - I thought that was the "magic wand" of cannon pinion removal!

You're right about the quality of the £10 price point of course, but maybe for a tenner its worth a try.

The vintage ones are pretty much that magic wand Bill, these days though you’ll likely be paying well over £100 to get one!

 

Tom

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mbwatch Super WRT Addict

mbwatch

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9 minutes ago, Bill2024 said:

I might experiment with the tweezers but, given I'm a total newbie, the risks you mention of this method seem all too likely! 

I do like the idea of the hand levers though; somehow that seems safer that the tweezer approach and less likely to bend/break something.

It does take practice and care. To do it with levers, they have to be thin but sturdy and still you need to be cautious to apply the same pressure from both sides. Most of the time with vintage watches, the cannon pinions will tend to be worn inside such that they are not holding on very tightly. Tweezers are easy on those. New movements with brand new or newly tightened cannon pinions can be more difficult with tweezers.

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nickelsilver Distinguished Member

nickelsilver

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The Bergeon is fairly useless, I'm not really sure how they sell them. The design is based on an American design, and those work just great. I pull tiny cannon pinions on the smallest LeCoultre and Patek movements with them, as well as big honkin cannon pinions on pocket watches. The original brand was "M-C"; that is stamped into the lever along with "Pat. 2271945". Looks just like the Bergeon, except it actually works.

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mbwatch Super WRT Addict

mbwatch

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30 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

The Bergeon is fairly useless, I'm not really sure how they sell them.

I'm glad to hear this from you, so I never get the idea to try and buy one (for about $20 less than a vintage M-C)

Here's a method with 90 degree tweezers (I think these are hairspring cutting tweezers technically). This is probably a little safer than using normal tweezers because you can more easily pull straight up without your own wrist causing unwanted leverage. I don't have these tweezers though. And this guy disassembles very expensive watches using this method exclusively I think. 45:00 in the video (linked at that time)

 

Edited by mbwatch
video time
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mbwatch Super WRT Addict

mbwatch

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19 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

Maybe these blunted with notches filed depending on the size of the pinion.

From this photo's vantage point it becomes clear these are basically nail clippers without the thumb lever. So I might also experiment with the same blunted clippers I already use as cannon pinion tighteners!

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LittleWatchShop Distinguished Member

LittleWatchShop

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I use an ancient Burgeon tool passed down to me from my dad.  I have since acquired several more by accident (maybe I bought one on ebay...cannot remember).  In all my use, never had a failure.  So, I love the tool.  But, I am an amateur.

 

Update: the two that I can lay my hands on right now, are both marked M.C. as noted by @nickelsilver.  I have another somewhere...???

Edited by LittleWatchShop
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Bill2024 Member

Bill2024

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6 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

The Bergeon is fairly useless, I'm not really sure how they sell them. The design is based on an American design, and those work just great. I pull tiny cannon pinions on the smallest LeCoultre and Patek movements with them, as well as big honkin cannon pinions on pocket watches. The original brand was "M-C"; that is stamped into the lever along with "Pat. 2271945". Looks just like the Bergeon, except it actually works.

It's interesting to know that there are other versions out there that work really well; to my, as yet untrained eye, they all look the same! Seems like the price of the "M-C" version is north of £150 though so maybe that's one for next Christmas.

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aitaita Member

aitaita

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This method works for me too, I can get the cannon pinion off most Omega pocket watches easily, But it can't get the cannon pinion off a brand new st36 for me.

5 hours ago, aac58 said:

I use a presto tool that i bought on Ali years ago, very cheap and work grate to extract the canon pinion.

 

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GPrideaux WRT Addict

GPrideaux

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I recently paid US$85 for a vintage tool from eBay before which I was using a pair of hand levers that I had thinned the ends of on a stone. It's much easier to be confident it's coming straight off with the right tool. I tried with tweezers but never felt I was properly in control of the process. Maybe I don't have the right tweezers.

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VWatchie Distinguished Member

VWatchie

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22 hours ago, nickelsilver said:

The Bergeon is fairly useless, I'm not really sure how they sell them.

I ordered one of those years ago when I was new to this, and you're right, it's pretty useless. I even got Cousins to refund me and that tells how useless it is.

Eventually, I got myself an old "M-C" and it works like a charm. It never fails me and I love that tool.

Hand levers seem like a good idea. Why don't we use them more often?

 

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mikepilk Distinguished Member

mikepilk

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22 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

Maybe these blunted with notches filed depending on the size of the pinion.

image.thumb.png.711d5807730d4a99f88ce2828f70b431.png

I just tried one using some of these cutters. I didn't even blunt them, just held gently. They work well.

I assume everyone does as I do, and just push crown pinions back on with tweezers, and not use a staking set?  If so, what's wrong with using tweezers to pull them off?

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