My first service, still a lot to learn and chasing low amplitude

[neevo]

I’ve built a couple of watches so far but never opened up a movement. I have a new vintage movement on the way but before I go anywhere near it with the screwdrivers, I wanted to get my eye in on the first movement I bought; a NH35.

I have a machine shop at home so consider myself pretty handy but my goodness, I was not prepared for the scale of watches. I have some loupes on the way and they are definitely going to be required. Doing anything with just your eyes takes some concentration.

I managed to get the movement apart no issues, took my time and spread everything out on some paper and took loads of photos.

I ran the movement through my ultrasonic cleaner. 1 clean cycle and 3 rinse cycles. All going great so far.

It took me a couple of goes to put the movement back together. I had an issue with the stem not activating the setting positions properly and I took it apart again. Turns out I just hadn’t properly aligned the clutch with the setting level it rides on. Once I had that done I had it all back without issue. The balance wheel takes me a while to engage the pallet fork, I need to get my head around how it needs to engage. I’m triple checking everything though before I tighten anything down so as not to break anything.

I have another disassembly in my future as I’m getting really low amplitude. The balance when is noticeably moving slower with less rotation. I need to work out what’s going on, but I have one major issue, my bloody tweezers are magnetised.

I carried on and put the movement back together but I’ll strip it down and have another go.

I think I need a solution for getting rid of the magnetisation. I have some plastic tweezers on the way, but I think the movement needs some help now too.

Way more challenging than I thought it was going to be. But sure I’ll have the NH35 back up and running soon. 

 

[mikepilk]

Plastic tweezers are not fine enough. You need to demagnetise your metal tweezers. Get a cheap demagnetiser.

Make sure all jewels and pivots are spotless and not damaged. Check end shakes - especially side and endshake on the top of  the barrel arbor. It's common for wear allowing the barrel to touch a plate or wheel losing lots of ampitude. 

[AndyGSi]

Trying getting some titanium tweezers.

[neevo]

I’ll add a cheap demagnetiser to the tools list. I’m pretty sure it’s not the movement unless I’ve damaged it, as it’s pretty much brand new.

I have a timegrapher app on my phone and was getting 300 degrees of amplitude beforehand. So I’ve definitely done something to the movement. I was very careful was assembly, so I suspect either incorrect lubrication or magnetisation .

I’ll grab some better tweezers, ones that can’t be magnetised.

Will have another go today and report back.

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 hours ago, neevo said:

I ran the movement through my ultrasonic cleaner. 1 clean cycle and 3 rinse cycles. 

Can we have more details here please, like what parts did you run through  ? and what solutions did you use ?

8 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

Trying getting some titanium tweezers.

Absolutely, there's something about using ultra light tweezers that makes your touch softer.

They scratch no more than brass and are tougher, no worry over magnetism. 

[neevo]

5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Can we have more details here please, like what parts did you run through  ? and what solutions did you use ?

I ran the parts though the following except for the screws (as I’m still waiting on some baskets, plus I didn’t want to forget which ones went where) and the pallet fork.

1. 70% Shellite, 30% white spirit

2. 100% shellite

3. 100% shellite

4. 100% IPA (I dipped the balance in there for only a few seconds so as not to dissolve the glue on the stone).

5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Absolutely, there's something about using ultra light tweezers that makes your touch softer.

They scratch no more than brass and are tougher, no worry over magnetism. 

I’ll have a look at some. I need a demagnetiser anyway so might as well buy more tools

I have the movement apart again to see if I can see anything obvious. The balance spring is all lopsided. Free coils on one side and all bunched up on the other. Like this (but not my photo):

Some basic googling seems to suggest a classic case of magnetism.

With a demagnetiser do the cheap blue ones work ok or am I better buying one of the ones where you click a button? I have one of those demagnetising plastic things in the garage and I can’t get the thing to demagnetise my tweezers for the life of me!

Edited December 1, 2024 by neevo

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 hours ago, neevo said:

I ran the parts though the following except for the screws (as I’m still waiting on some baskets, plus I didn’t want to forget which ones went where) and the pallet fork.

1. 70% Shellite, 30% white spirit

2. 100% shellite

3. 100% shellite

4. 100% IPA (I dipped the balance in there for only a few seconds so as not to dissolve the glue on the stone).

I’ll have a look at some. I need a demagnetiser anyway so might as well buy more tools

I have the movement apart again to see if I can see anything obvious. The balance spring is all lopsided. Free coils on one side and all bunched up on the other. Like this (but not my photo):

Some basic googling seems to suggest a classic case of magnetism.

With a demagnetiser do the cheap blue ones work ok or am I better buying one of the ones where you click a button? I have one of those demagnetising plastic things in the garage and I can’t get the thing to demagnetise my tweezers for the life of me!

So any schellaced jewels/items didn't experience the USM or much in the way of IPA ? Both could affect those parts if used in excess time periods. I have the blue demagger and its worked for me over the last three years, although the lower voltage used in the States makes them less effective. 

[neevo]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

So any schellaced jewels/items didn't experience the USM or much in the way of IPA ? Both could affect those parts if used in excess time periods. I have the blue demagger and its worked for me over the last three years, although the lower voltage used in the States makes them less effective. 

Correct. I’ll grab a demagnetiser and hopefully that solves the problem.

[neevo]

So I’ve purchased a demagnetiser and also some titanium tweezers. Also grabbed some peg wood.

Hopefully it arrives before Xmas along with my loupes and I can have another go at this movement.

[JohnR725]

On 11/30/2024 at 10:56 AM, neevo said:

I have a timegrapher app on my phone and was getting 300 degrees

timing machine apps have the problem of making use of the phones microphone. A microphone that was not actually designed for timing machines. the problem is timing machine or app needs a really good clean signal otherwise you will conceivably get bad numbers. So many times in the group apps have taken us down a path of hopelessness because they do not do a very good job. One of the Chinese timing machines like the 1000 or the 1900 preferred come with a microphone designed and work much better with watches.

On 11/30/2024 at 6:33 PM, neevo said:

I have one of those demagnetising plastic things in the garage and I can’t get the thing to demagnetise my tweezers for the life of me!

it would help if you describe the procedure that you're doing so we can see if you're doing it correctly.

 

On 11/30/2024 at 6:33 PM, neevo said:

I have the movement apart again to see if I can see anything obvious. The balance spring is all lopsided. Free coils on one side and all bunched up on the other. Like this (but not my photo):

if it's not your photo whose photo is it is that the watch were discussing? The problem is when you show us a photo of some of their watch it's not really helpful. The other problem is when the balance wheel is out of the watch it often times will lean and distort the hairspring. It's usually much better if you can give us a picture of the balance wheel in the watch as that's where the problem is.

 

[neevo]

14 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

timing machine apps have the problem of making use of the phones microphone. A microphone that was not actually designed for timing machines. the problem is timing machine or app needs a really good clean signal otherwise you will conceivably get bad numbers. So many times in the group apps have taken us down a path of hopelessness because they do not do a very good job. One of the Chinese timing machines like the 1000 or the 1900 preferred come with a microphone designed and work much better with watches.

it would help if you describe the procedure that you're doing so we can see if you're doing it correctly.

 

if it's not your photo whose photo is it is that the watch were discussing? The problem is when you show us a photo of some of their watch it's not really helpful. The other problem is when the balance wheel is out of the watch it often times will lean and distort the hairspring. It's usually much better if you can give us a picture of the balance wheel in the watch as that's where the problem is.

 

Yeah fair enough. Let me snap a picture next time I have it apart. I did have a go but to be honest the picture was so terrible I didn’t bother. All my macro camera equipment is long gone, so only have the iPhone these days and it’s just not good enough, even when I tried to use magnification.

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, neevo said:

so only have the iPhone these days and it’s just not good enough, even when I tried to use magnification.

I thought they had adapters for the phones to take close-up photos?

[nevenbekriev]

Hi Neevo,

Nothing bad in getting demagnetizer, but don't expect something to change alot when You demagnetize the movement. We need real picture of You hairspring.

[GPrideaux]

I think I know the kind of plastic 'demagnetizer' you mean. Something like the one here, I'm guessing: https://www.altronics.com.au/p/t1475a-screwdriver-magnetiser-demagnetiser/ It might be useful for working on 6mm screws and such like, but it's useless for watches. The cheap kind that @mikepilk showed above work fine, but you have to know how to use them: press the button with the part/watch/tool in contact then slowly move the it away while keeping the button pressed. Only release the button when the part/watch/tool is well away. I found, though, that the steel tweezers and screwdrivers that I had for electronic work weren't any good for watch work as even very slight magnetism can mean that a screw doesn't let go when you want it to. Jobs that should be routine become nerve-wracking!

Edited December 3, 2024 by GPrideaux

[neevo]

I bought one of these. Not a fancy Swiss one but the reviews all were great saying easy to use and worked perfectly. Even citing how inconsistent the cheap ones were and how this solved that.

Given I’m new to all this I thought easy to use would be a bonus.

 

I will grab some photos of the balance once a few more parts show up. My plan is to demagnetise, take the movement apart again, clean everything once more (maybe I messed up the lubrication) and put it back together again and see if it returns to how it was before.

[Neverenoughwatches]

16 hours ago, GPrideaux said:

I think I know the kind of plastic 'demagnetizer' you mean. Something like the one here, I'm guessing: https://www.altronics.com.au/p/t1475a-screwdriver-magnetiser-demagnetiser/ It might be useful for working on 6mm screws and such like, but it's useless for watches. The cheap kind that @mikepilk showed above work fine, but you have to know how to use them: press the button with the part/watch/tool in contact then slowly move the it away while keeping the button pressed. Only release the button when the part/watch/tool is well away. I found, though, that the steel tweezers and screwdrivers that I had for electronic work weren't any good for watch work as even very slight magnetism can mean that a screw doesn't let go when you want it to. Jobs that should be routine become nerve-wracking!

 The magnetic fields created by the magnetiser will bring into alignment the iron elements within a non alloyed steel of close proximity, whereby magnetising it. As the steel is pulled away progressively weaker fields from the magnetiser will begin to disorientate those elements, to the eventual point of complete random directions and so leave an unmagnetised piece of steel. I sometimes find it handy to apply some weak magnetism to a tool, just by stroking a magnet over it. I keep a few of various strengths within reach of my bench.

5 hours ago, neevo said:

I bought one of these. Not a fancy Swiss one but the reviews all were great saying easy to use and worked perfectly. Even citing how inconsistent the cheap ones were and how this solved that.

Given I’m new to all this I thought easy to use would be a bonus.

 

I will grab some photos of the balance once a few more parts show up. My plan is to demagnetise, take the movement apart again, clean everything once more (maybe I messed up the lubrication) and put it back together again and see if it returns to how it was before.

Do you have a link for it please ? some folk might be interested.  Postscript: love that classic picture of Jacko and Mr.T .

Edited December 4, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches

[neevo]

31 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

 The magnetic fields created by the magnetiser will bring into alignment the iron elements within a non alloyed steel of close proximity, whereby magnetising it. As the steel is pulled away progressively weaker fields from the magnetiser will begin to disorientate those elements, to the eventual point of complete random directions and so leave an unmagnetised piece of steel. I sometimes find it handy to apply some weak magnetism to a tool, just by stroking a magnet over it. I keep a few of various strengths within reach of my bench.

Do you have a link for it please ? some folk might be interested.  Postscript: love that classic picture of Jacko and Mr.T .

Of course. So far I’ve purchased all my watch parts and tools from AliExpress. They’ve been great. I’ve bought a few things from them for my machine shop but they’re selection of watch stuff is beyond anything else.

I just found this on AliExpress: AU$76.06 | 220V Demagnetizer For Watch Compact Portable Professional Electrical Watch Repair Degaussing Tool for Watchmakers
https://a.aliexpress.com/_m0OTLRt

That image has gone everywhere for me. Apparently it’s an image linked to a story about Michael Jackson using a drug called Neevo, so I’ve stuck with it since the early 2000’s for everything I’ve done online.

[neevo]

16 hours ago, GPrideaux said:

I think I know the kind of plastic 'demagnetizer' you mean. Something like the one here, I'm guessing: https://www.altronics.com.au/p/t1475a-screwdriver-magnetiser-demagnetiser/ 

Yep, that’s the sort. I put my tweezers though it and it did nothing. Can’t for the life of me get it to do anything.

[nevenbekriev]

I will open a secret for You: The hairspring of You watch can't be magnetized. What can be magnetized is the stud carrier and the regulator, but I doubt that it is the case.

To check if the demagnetizer works, You need to magnetize something, then demagnetize it. Get some sewing needle, put it on a magnet, then check if the screws from the movement will stick to it. Then demagnetize the needle and eventually the screws, and check again...

See, no need to disassemble the movement and start all over. The result of course will be the same. No need to change the magic words You use too.  You can do the free oscillations test that will eventually show the problem is in the balance.

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, neevo said:

bought one of these. Not a fancy Swiss one but the reviews all were great saying easy to use and worked perfectly. Even citing how inconsistent the cheap ones were and how this solved that.

I don't suppose the bottom would come off easy so we could see inside? I'm just curious as to how it compares with the Swiss version providing it's easy to get apart otherwise don't worry about it.

7 hours ago, neevo said:

My plan is to demagnetise, take the movement apart again, clean everything once more (maybe I messed up the lubrication) and put it back together again and see if it returns to how it was before.

As you do not actually know what the problem is repeating the same steps over and over again will not change the outcome. You have a classic problem of troubleshooting and identifying the problem and then solving the problem as opposed to hoping somehow the outcome will change which it will not. Although people new to watch repair need to practice disassembling and reassembling the practice will be good.

[neevo]

I’m not taking it apart to “hope” to fix it but as you suggest I’m doing it to get used to the process. I’m getting more comfortable with the size of things and when I have some loupes I think I’ll do a better job of either looking for something I did wrong, maybe something I damaged, or maybe I messed up the oiling and put something thick where I should have put something thin.

Happy to play around with my NH35 because I would like to try and service something a bit more exotic one day. But for now happy to practice on a cheap movement that I know was working before I took it apart the first time.

[neevo]

@JohnR725 I’m happy to take the back off the demagnetiser when it gets here. I’ll post some pics when it arrives.

 

[neevo]

A few more tools came in and I’ve been playing around more. Some of it good and some of it less so 

First up my loupes arrived which makes a big difference for the close up delicate work. Although when doing the general movement I think I prefer nothing. I got a cheap set but they seem to work fine. I was also able to use one of them to snap a photo of the balance wheel:

 

The jewel is there and I can’t see any damage to the hairspring but it does look off centre to me. Waiting for the demag tool still, so will try that when it turns up.

I also got some plastic tweezers. They work well but I think I’ll prefer the titanium ones when they arrive, as I have a bit more feel on the steel ones I’ve been using. But don’t want to use them as they’re still magnetised.

I did however manage to have a go at removing the balance wheel jewels. Got them out no worries until I managed to ping one of the end stones in to another dimension. I searched for 30 mins but no chance I’m finding it. So I’ve bought a replacement. All part of the learning journey.

Ive also set a few lamps up on the bench as I’m finding need more light. So pretty happy with the set up for now. Will keep on playing around.

Currently waiting on some baskets so I can run the movement through the US cleaner again and have another go at assembling and lubricating properly.

Edited December 7, 2024 by neevo

[neevo]

Spent more time in the garage getting used to playing with movements. I stripped the NH35 again and did some manual cleaning and ran it through the US cleaner again to have it nice and clean ready to reassemble.

This time I thought I’d have a go at removing the end stones for the train of wheels. I’m not 100% sure which ones use capstones but there are 2 on the main bridge.

Holy hell are those things small. My plan was to remove them, drop some oil on them and reinstall. But there was no way it was happening. I struggled to not wipe the oil off as I was flipping the stones and putting them in the plate. So I cleaned the oil off and instead put them in dry. I can see why people use auto oilers! Even getting the end stones and spring clips in was tough, but gentle touch and patience eventually got it done.

I think I’ll have a much better chance with the chatones (sp??) as they’re so much bigger. That’s this afternoons job on one of them. The other needs a new end stone which is on the way.

Edited December 8, 2024 by neevo

[neevo]

I just did the balance chaton on the main plate side and it’s a million times easier than those tiny ones. Dropping the chaton on the end stone also makes it a million times easier.