JLC 929/3 Master Geographic (base JLC 889/2, IWC 3253, AP 2124)

[Knebo]

Hello all! 

Sorry for those members clicking here and expecting actual content from me (yet!!) 

I'm planning to service this Jaeger-LeCoultre Master Geographic, reference 142.8.92, with the calibre JLC 929/3. It's also used by Audemars Piguet as AP 2329 (base)/2847(dual time module). 

The base calibre the JLC 889/2, which was also used as an ébauche for IWC 3253, Audemars Piguet 2124/2224/2329 and Vacheron Constantin 1126).

I found the (succinct) service sheet from JLC for the 889/2 base calibre and the travel time module 929. See attached! 

jlccal889-2.pdf

JLC 929.pdf

Below some pictures of watch and movement.

Does anyone have any experience with these calibres and hints/tips for me that I should know to avoid mistakes? 

[mikepilk]

Lovely watch. Nicely detailed service sheets. Lots of bits, but it looks pretty straight forward.  Good luck

[Knebo]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

Lovely watch. Nicely detailed service sheets. Lots of bits, but it looks pretty straight forward.  Good luck

Yes, it seems doable. 

But I'm scared because it's extremely difficult/expensive to get any spare parts. Thus my anxiety to make any mistakes. So any advice on tricky bits is appreciated. 

[Knebo]

Hi all, 

any ideas about this lubrication advice? Never seen this before and not sure if I could mix it up myself. Alternatives? Lubeta V105?

[Knebo]

Alright! 

Disassembly and cleaning is done. 

[Knebo]

On 11/28/2024 at 10:00 AM, Knebo said:

Hi all, 

any ideas about this lubrication advice? Never seen this before and not sure if I could mix it up myself. Alternatives? Lubeta V105?

An update on this one.

It's just the click. So the special JLC service note can most likely be replace with the application of grease/thick oil in the usual spots.

[Kalanag]

Well done!

The tasks I found challenging working on this calibre:

- disassembling the  very special canon pinion unit (easy to be overlooked!)

- oiling the combined jewel-bushings  with fixed cap stones (escape wheel)

- orienting the friction spring of the second hand pivot correctly

 

Edited December 2, 2024 by Kalanag

[Knebo]

Thanks @Kalanag

Indeed, I had overlooked that the canon pinon needs further disassembly (I noticed it earlier today when I was planning the assembly). Is there a trick to separate the pieces?

Have you worked on the 889 or also on the 929 geographic/power reserve module?

 

I have an unusual problem. I part appeared during cleaning. I meticulously took pictures of every part I disassembled, but this one isn't captured and I am sure that I didn't see it. Maybe it was stuck to a plate or wheel and I didn't notice it. It's a thin washer-like piece. I found it in the basket compartment with the second time-zone pieces:

Edited December 2, 2024 by Knebo

[Kalanag]

28 minutes ago, Knebo said:

…I had overlooked that the canon pinon needs further disassembly (I noticed it earlier today when I was planning the assembly). Is there a trick to separate the pieces?

Have you worked on the 889 or also on the 929 geographic/power reserve module?…

I used my Presto tool and a racor blade. The canon pinion with the small wheel is pushed from below through a suitable hole in the blade while the bigger wheel is held back by the blade. The plastic legs of the Presto tool push against the blade during disassembly (Hope my words make sense…).

I just worked on the 889. No idea where the washer comes from.

Here a picture of the canon pinion unit for reference:

Edited December 2, 2024 by Kalanag

[AndyGSi]

I presume you've gone through your pictures in detail as I would expected it to still be visible and can't be many parts with that size hole in them.

[Knebo]

44 minutes ago, Kalanag said:

used my Presto tool and a racor blade. The canon pinion with the small wheel is pushed from below through a suitable hole in the blade while the bigger wheel is held back by the blade. The plastic legs of the Presto tool push against the blade during disassembly (Hope my words make sense…).

Yes, that makes perfect sense. 

Mine is a modified version for the 929. See pic below. Will have to figure out where it separates.

44 minutes ago, Kalanag said:

No idea where the washer comes from.

 

22 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

I presume you've gone through your pictures in detail as I would expected it to still be visible and can't be many parts with that size hole in them.

Haha, trust me, I've gone through all pics several times and also thought about the hole size. Can't figure it out. It also doesn't show up on the service manuals... makes me think that it may have come from a different movement. But I've only used the cleaning machine the second time now. The only other movement was an ETA 2452. But I also didn't see/miss that washer there. I'll try to find the parts list.. 

Edited December 2, 2024 by Knebo

[AndyGSi]

Clips taken from a YouTube Video.

 

[Kalanag]

7 hours ago, Knebo said:

Yes, that makes perfect sense. 

Mine is a modified version for the 929. See pic below. Will have to figure out where it separates.

Let me add that separating, cleaning and lubricating this canon pinion setup seems to be important. My movement had a binding canon pinion when I sent it to JLC for the first service. They replaced the whole setup. Years later when I did the service myself the canon had started binding again (setting the hands got stiff).

Edited December 3, 2024 by Kalanag

[Knebo]

8 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

Clips taken from a YouTube Video.

 

Mate @AndyGSi, thanks so much for taking the time to investigate. Too kind and the reason why I love this forum. 

I'm afraid, though, this is just the balance jewel setting which seems to appear/disappear due to differences in lighting/exposure in the YouTube video. I just checked my mainplate to be sure. See below. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Kalanag said:

Let me add that separating, cleaning and lubricating this canon pinion setup seems to be important. My movement had a binding canon pinion when I sent it to JLC for the first service. They replaced the whole setup. Years later when I did the service myself the canon had started binding again (setting the hands got stiff).

Good to know, thanks. I'll definitely do that. Do you put a bit of 9504 inside (like we'd normally do)? The JLC lubrication chart isn't very clear there. 

[nickelsilver]

JLC used thin washers under some crown/winding wheels in many movements. I think both to take wear, and to take up play. Does it logically fit under one of the winding wheels?

[Kalanag]

14 hours ago, Knebo said:

Do you put a bit of 9504 inside (like we'd normally do)? The JLC lubrication chart isn't very clear there. 

I used Molycote DX

[Knebo]

Thanks for confirming! I guess both greases are good for this purpose. I have 9504, but not M-DX... so I'll go with the former. 

By the way, I just separated the canon pinion. It came off rather easily (hopefully not too easily..) when sliding a scalpel in-between. I'll see later if any tightening of the CP is necessary. But hopefully/probably not. 

Thanks for your advice! 

[Knebo]

Here comes a disassembly mega-post!

Step by step, screw by screw.

Not many explanations, only where I feel it's useful.

 

only one watchmaker, probably the one at JLC that built this baby, signed the service log

Overview 1

Overview 2

closeup of data corrector

city-wheel/second time zone crown

first I take the rotor of. 0.8mm screwdriver.

remember that the position of the centre-seconds spring is towards the balance wheel

intermediate wheel for self-winding mechanism (next is the wig-wag style wheel/pinion -- comes later)

to remove the crown:
1. loosen the screw that I'm pointing at

2. push down the brass-plate at the indicated position

case screws (2x)

overview without rotor

to be able to remove the movement, the city-crown needs to be positioned such that the slot in the inside is "open" (see gap in casing ring)

main hands removed

complication hands removed

side of casing ring for the record

pinion on casing ring to change city/2nd time zone

Metal pin that acts as extension of the data corrector... don't loose that one!

 

city ring just lifts off

 

overview. 

city-change-pinion again

removing casing ring (two screws)

the pin on the side helps to correctly position the movement into the casing ring

two long dial screws to loosen...

and off comes the dial

 

complication module

2nd time zone side

power reserve (left) and date (right).

date wheel comes off without screws

 

more wheels without screws

day/night indicator (for 2nd time zone). 

2nd time zone changing wheel

cover plate for additional 2nd time zone wheels

overview and the removing everything layer-by-layer

now over to the power reserve

this wheel is friction-fit to the extended barrel arbor. removed with presto tool.

these two wheels, screws and seats are the same.

I overlooked that one of the seats (on right) was stuck to the screw, so it looked different. It came off during cleaning.

removing corrector lever and spring

I leave the date jumper in place for cleaning

finding/cremoving screws for module plate (1+2 of 4)

3 of 4

4 of 4

complication module coming off

overview of mainplate dial side

side view shows extra high (two-part) canon pinion (for 2nd time zone and date) and extended barrel arbor (for power reserve)

continuing disassembly on train side

perfect hairspring

wow, look at that beauty of pallet fork and its cock

further parts of the automatic works taken off

wig-wag wheels for bi-directional winding

train bridge

escape wheel cap+hole jewel setting is fixed. There are three holes around the hole jewel to ensure that cleaning is effective. 

train wheels

 

second wheel can't be removed until barrel bridge is off, too. For assembly, I'll therefore start with the train bridge (before barrel bridge).

Three screws to remove the barrel bridge. The one screw pointed at is NOT part of them and holds the hacking lever.

underside of train bridge with winding wheels and centre seconds tension spring (the latter can stay in place for cleaning)

under barrel bridge

this is still the second wheel from the gear train

the click (click spring can stay in place for cleaning)

 

 

centre seconds pinion

the keyless works is distributed on both sides of the mainplate

beautiful curved hacking lever

don't overlook the seat for the yoke

dial side keyless works

note that the rounded side faces downwards

no top/bottom difference for this one

the two-part canon pinion needs to be disassembled for cleaning (later)

removing balance jewels (also on balance cock)

underside of barrel bridge

barrel disassembled. IMPORTANT NOTE: mainspring is left-handed! So, ordering an original JLC mainspring from Cousins because I don't have left-handed mainspring winder. https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/under-100mm-height?code=M65598

I strongly suggest taking the original JLC spring and NOT the generic GR24473 because the barrel arbor is very small (in diameter) and I'd suspect that the GR spring comes with a too-large centre coil.

 

 

MORE TO COME SOON.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2024 by Knebo

[VWatchie]

39 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Here comes a disassembly mega-post!

Step by step, screw by screw.

Not many explanations, only where I feel it's useful.

Brilliant! 

[Knebo]

@Kalanag, how do you lubricate this wheel? I find the chart not very clear.

 

[Knebo]

PS: I must admit that I don't quite understand the purpose of this wheel. Are the three arms supposed to slip when mainspring tension gets too high (as a safety mechanism)? 

 

( @Kalanag )

[Kalanag]

On 12/5/2024 at 11:36 AM, Knebo said:

PS: I must admit that I don't quite understand the purpose of this wheel. Are the three arms supposed to slip when mainspring tension gets too high (as a safety mechanism)? 

 

( @Kalanag )

I also see it as a kind of safety mechanism. It can be a decoupler between auto and manual wind too. I did not lubricate the springy arms.

Next time I‘ll apply a bit of grease on the expected circular glide path of the spring tips.

Edited December 6, 2024 by Kalanag

[Knebo]

On 12/6/2024 at 1:48 PM, Kalanag said:

I also see it as a kind of safety mechanism. It can be a decoupler between auto and manual wind too. I did not lubricate the springy arms.

Next time I‘ll apply a bit of grease on the expected circular glide path of the spring tips.

Thanks, I'll look into this a bit further. 

 

For now, as I'm still waiting for a new mainspring, I started assembly with the keyless works. 

 

First, I still need to disassemble the canon pinion

A scalpel slid between the parts and it came apart easily. 

Through the cleaning machine again.. 

Then 9504 on the shaft and a bit on the base

Pushed together on a hard flat surface with hand setting pushers. 

The excess 9504, I'm removing with Rodico. 

 

Oiling posts with HP1300 (wider parts, top and bottom).

 

Canon pinion and minute wheel need to go on at the same time. A bit fiddly. I add a tiny tiny drop of HP1300 on the elevated ring below the minute wheel (red arrow). 

 

More posts, HP1300. 

Note that the elevated ring on the plate has no purpose. The wheel goes on with the bigger side up. 

Remember that the rounded side goes downwards. 

 

Post for the rocking bar, HP1300, small amount, careful spread around the post. 

Oiling the riveted wheel on the rocking bar is a bit tricky. There's not enough space for even my smallest oiler to really get in-between... so I use a scalpel. A bit messy. Rodico for some cleaning. 

The three positions of the rocking bar. 1. Time setting, 2. Winding, 3. Setting the hour on the second time zone. 

Cover plate on. 

 

On now moving to the train side of the keyless works (interesting and unusual design). 

9504 greasing of sliding/winding pinion and stem

Positioning is straight forward 

9504 also here. Distributing it by turning the stem. 

 

Lubricating edges of rocking bar and setting lever spring with 9504.

Honestly, positioning the setting lever was very fiddly. I tried various positions of the rocking bar and I'm not sure which one finally worked....

 

Securing setting lever with screw and then the stop operating lever. Greasing (9504) the touching points with the hacking lever, then removing excess with fresh Rodico. 

 

Placing seat for yoke. Note that there's a top/bottom side. If it doesn't place easily, don't force it, just turn around. 

Carefully spreading 9504 around the hole of the yoke (since this doesn't turn 360°, I make the effort to spread it out). 

After positioning and securing the yoke, I also observe and grease the touching point between yoke and hacking lever. 

 

That concludes the keyless works. 

[Kalanag]

Well done so far! Thanks for sharing!

The clutch wheel we discussed above is needed for decoupling the manual wind from the automatic works. The clutch mechanism gets engaged during manual winding.

Karl

Edited December 9, 2024 by Kalanag

[Knebo]

Thanks, Karl  / @Kalanag, for confirming the function of that wheel. So, is it actually two wheels riveted together? Shouldn't there then also be lubrication between them around the shaft? Well, I'll have to look at it under the microscope next time I'm at the bench.