Stuck screw, and out of ideas.

[AndyGSi]

2 minutes ago, ChrisInOz said:

perhaps I should try its barrel complete in this movement and see if it works.  

You could at least compare the external details and see how it compares.

[ChrisInOz]

2 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

You could at least compare the external details and see how it compares.

Yes, for sure.  When I do it I will add a side by side picture to this thread.

[MikeEll]

8 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

Not sure how he did this as the Gruen 240 is completely different.

It also looks too small to me for an 11 1/2 lignes?

well, what I actually said was this... 

"I think its a Gruen 240 movement.

Very similar to this one - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/286073258459

Hmm, on second thoughts maybe not.  Similar but not identical.  For £15 though, I'd be tempted for spares.  You might even get lucky and be able to use it as a replacement movement."

 

As you say, it is different, but it is very similar.  Based on that info, the ebay example movement was indeed a very similar match. It was the closest match in Bestfit.  I've had fairly good success on other projects with clearly similar movements.  many of the parts, especially screws, are interchangeable with a little luck.

Edited December 11, 2024 by MikeEll

[nevenbekriev]

Hi Mike, does the spring end now looks like on this picture?

I mean the piece may have broke and now the end is without it, but may just be this kind of spring repair:

 

[ChrisInOz]

7 hours ago, MikeEll said:

well, what I actually said was this... 

Please accept my apologies, @MikeEll,  for misrepresenting you.   Everyone,  any mistakes I have made in this thread are mine alone,  since I am just a beginner at this, and don't know what I'm talking about.  If I misinterpret anyone's advice, then the fault is mine.

 

6 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

Hi Mike, does the spring end now looks like on this picture?

I mean the piece may have broke and now the end is without it, but may just be this kind of spring repair:

 

Oh my!  You found the smoking gun!

I didn't realise I had a picture of the intact spring.   It looks like I must have broken it when hand-feeding it back into the barrel the first time.  It's actually me who has this movement,  not Mike.  He has never seen it in person.

Good news is that I now know how the original spring looked,  so I can make the repair look the same.

[Neverenoughwatches]

14 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

Hi Mike, does the spring end now looks like on this picture?

I mean the piece may have broke and now the end is without it, but may just be this kind of spring repair:

 

I've found this seperate loose hook a couplevof times in old movements 

7 hours ago, ChrisInOz said:

Please accept my apologies, @MikeEll,  for misrepresenting you.   Everyone,  any mistakes I have made in this thread are mine alone,  since I am just a beginner at this, and don't know what I'm talking about.  If I misinterpret anyone's advice, then the fault is mine.

 

Oh my!  You found the smoking gun!

I didn't realise I had a picture of the intact spring.   It looks like I must have broken it when hand-feeding it back into the barrel the first time.  It's actually me who has this movement,  not Mike.  He has never seen it in person.

Good news is that I now know how the original spring looked,  so I can make the repair look the same.

Notice this edge to make on the loose hook to catch the barrel wall ledge.

[MikeEll]

You could probably measure up the barrel and order a new mainspring by size.  There’s a few formulas for calculating mainspring dimensions.

9 hours ago, ChrisInOz said:

Please accept my apologies, @MikeEll,  for misrepresenting you.   Everyone,  any mistakes I have made in this thread are mine alone,  since I am just a beginner at this, and don't know what I'm talking about.  If I misinterpret anyone's advice, then the fault is mine.

Not at all, there's nothing to apologise for.

[ChrisInOz]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Notice this edge to make on the loose hook to catch the barrel wall ledge.

Yes. I see that the edge has a bevel to ensure it will work its way into the underside of the ledge. 

[ChrisInOz]

Progress report - I have good news and bad news . 

First the good news.  It seems that I haven't actually broken anything yet. The mainspring still has its hook on the end.  The tab that fell out appears to have been just inserted into the folded end of the spring,  but not attached.

I re-inserted it,  in the orientation I think it originally would have had.  It looked like the best orientation to get the bevel to engage with the barrel wall slot,  but perhaps not.

This looked like it would have the best chance of engaging with the notch in the barrel wall,  but maybe I'm wrong ....

Question. Would it be normal practice to just insert a tab this way,  or am I looking at someone's earlier repair?

I reassembled the movement,  and this time I was able to wind it considerably more.   The watch started running,  and I left it to run overnight.

Now for the bad news.  The next morning,  about ten hours later,  the watch had stopped,  and there was no power left in the barrel.  I tried winding,  and was back to hearing the mainspring slipping again.  Ho hum.

Some pics of the barrel.  It looks very worn.  Maybe the wall slot is too worn for a good grip. 

Anyhow,  the watch was running,  but with very low amplitude.  From a video I took of the balance it looked like it was barely hitting 90 degrees.

Still,  I decided to see what the timegrapher had to say.

Very inconsistent performance. The rate is all over the place.   I don't believe that amplitude display at all.  It doesn't look anything like that visually.  I'm guessing it's just wrong because I haven't set the lift angle.

I see that the screen is also displaying a full colour image of the nut behind the camera.  Funny,  I don't remember ordering that feature. 

The movement only runs in the dial down position.  Any other position stops it immediately. 

I have not yet lubricated the pallet stones,  or cleaned and oiled the balance cock jewel,  so that won't be helping,  but I suspect there are more problems than just that.

I have more to tell,  but I need to take a couple of hours off to enjoy a brief migraine.  Back soon. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

30 minutes ago, ChrisInOz said:

Progress report - I have good news and bad news . 

First the good news.  It seems that I haven't actually broken anything yet. The mainspring still has its hook on the end.  The tab that fell out appears to have been just inserted into the folded end of the spring,  but not attached.

I re-inserted it,  in the orientation I think it originally would have had.  It looked like the best orientation to get the bevel to engage with the barrel wall slot,  but perhaps not.

This looked like it would have the best chance of engaging with the notch in the barrel wall,  but maybe I'm wrong ....

Question. Would it be normal practice to just insert a tab this way,  or am I looking at someone's earlier repair?

I reassembled the movement,  and this time I was able to wind it considerably more.   The watch started running,  and I left it to run overnight.

Now for the bad news.  The next morning,  about ten hours later,  the watch had stopped,  and there was no power left in the barrel.  I tried winding,  and was back to hearing the mainspring slipping again.  Ho hum.

Some pics of the barrel.  It looks very worn.  Maybe the wall slot is too worn for a good grip. 

Anyhow,  the watch was running,  but with very low amplitude.  From a video I took of the balance it looked like it was barely hitting 90 degrees.

Still,  I decided to see what the timegrapher had to say.

Very inconsistent performance. The rate is all over the place.   I don't believe that amplitude display at all.  It doesn't look anything like that visually.  I'm guessing it's just wrong because I haven't set the lift angle.

I see that the screen is also displaying a full colour image of the nut behind the camera.  Funny,  I don't remember ordering that feature. 

The movement only runs in the dial down position.  Any other position stops it immediately. 

I have not yet lubricated the pallet stones,  or cleaned and oiled the balance cock jewel,  so that won't be helping,  but I suspect there are more problems than just that.

I have more to tell,  but I need to take a couple of hours off to enjoy a brief migraine.  Back soon. 

You have the the loose hook in the wrong way Chris. Look again at Nev's book page and the part I circled. The piece should follow the same curve as the spring and the long edge of the bevel would be against the barrel wall to hook into the ledge. It must have just caught and held while full tension was applied then slipped over the ledge when the springs tension dropped when unwinding. 

The fold also needs straightening out,flattening a bit more and cutting back. Too much interference with the barrel wall as it is, looks like its stopping the hook engaing properly. 

Needs tidying up.

Yes that is a repair Chris.

I should say ...that one is.

52 minutes ago, ChrisInOz said:

I see that the screen is also displaying a full colour image of the nut behind the camera.  Funny,  I don't remember ordering that feature. 

Dont worry about it Chris, I'm as bad with photos, the forum has seen me in my underpants more than once

Ps I hope thats your camera thats playing up, because if the barrel actually looks like that then the movement has much bigger problems to deal with

[ChrisInOz]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Ps I hope thats your camera thats playing up, because if the barrel actually looks like that then the movement has much bigger problems to deal with

Yes it is.   Actually it's the clip-on microscope lens that is distorting the barrel shape and making it look out-of-round. 

On 12/11/2024 at 5:51 PM, AndyGSi said:

I remembered to measure the mainspring while it was out of the barrel (but forgot to measure the arbor diameter .) 

My spring is 1.473 mm high and 0.118 mm thick.  The internal diameter of the barrel is 9mm.  If I assume a 3mm diameter arbor,  and use the NAWCC calculator,  this gives a length close to 240mm.  

as @Neverenoughwatches pointed out,  the spring I have may not be the correct one anyway,  and the one you found would seem to be the correct length for my barrel according to the calculator.

I have to open the barrel again to re-orient the tab,  so this time I will measure the arbor,  the barrel depth and the thickness of the lid.   How much clearance should there be between a spring and the top and bottom of its barrel?

 

 

 

[ChrisInOz]

A quick update on (lack of) progress.

I opened the barrel again,  and discovered that the hook was still securely attached to the barrel wall.   That's the good news.

The bad news is that the mainspring has broken.   Looks like it must have snapped when I managed to put a full wind on it for the first time.

OK,  I think it's time for a new mainspring.

I will put in an order to Cousins after the end of year chaos is over.

Merry Christmas and Happy New year everyone.