Stuck screw, and out of ideas.

[ChrisInOz]

Hi Folks.

For the past five days I have been trying to free a stuck ratchet wheel screw on an unidentified Swiss movement.  I have been reading the helpful posts on this forum about stuck screws,  and have tried everything mentioned I think.

To save everyone's time,  I will give a list of what I have done so far.  At every stage I am attempting both clockwise and anticlockwise movement of the screw.

1. 30 minute soak in Evaporust,  because rust was present on the ratchet wheel.  Rust was removed,  but screw was not freed.
2. 5 minutes in Ultrasonic cleaner with PC board cleaning fluid.
3. Rinse in distilled water,  followed by 5 minutes ultrasonic in Isopropyl Alcohol
4. Overnight soak in WD40,  followed by rinse in Naphtha.  Screw still stuck.
5. 5 minutes ultrasonic cleaning in Naphtha,  followed by IPA rinse
6. 48 hour soak in Coca Cola.  This turned the ratchet wheel,  click and their screws completely black,  but did not free the screw.
7. At this point I was beginning to think the screw had been superglued in place,  so I soaked the parts overnight in Acetone,  which is a solvent for cyanoacrylates.  Still, the screw was not freed.
8. Last resort,  I set my soldering iron to 400C,  and heated the screw head for a full minute.  

At some point in all of that,  my efforts caused the lid to come off the mainspring barrel,  which of course is still trapped in the bridge by the ratchet wheel screw stuck in its arbor.  The arbor is also completely blackened by the coca cola.  The spring is out of the barrel,  so it escaped the Coke treatment.

Today I finally received my delivery of L&R extra fine watch cleaning fluid,  so I will probably give it one more go in the ultrasonic with that,  but I'm not really expecting it to help.

Correct me if I am wrong,  but I am thinking that turning my blowtorch on the ratchet wheel would be a bad idea.

Some pictures of the movement

You can see someone has been here before me.  The screw heads came pre-chowdered,  though I may have made them worse later, after I took the picture above.

The balance and the other parts all seem to be in good shape,  so I feel like I have a good chance of getting this to run if I can just get past the current problem.

Above is the barrel bridge after evaporust treatment.   The click looks black already,  so maybe the Coke was not entirely to blame.

Movement came with a really nice dial and hands.  I'd love to get it running.  It seems to have just been left in a drawer,  uncased, for about 30 years.

One more pic,  from before I removed the train bridge.

[nevenbekriev]

The screw heads of the ratchet and crown wheel screws look the same. This in some movements (Usually AS ones) is a sign that they both are lefthand threaded. Did You try tho turn the screw clockwise?

Using Evaporust is totally wrong, throw it away.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, ChrisInOz said:

Today I finally received my delivery of L&R extra fine watch cleaning fluid,  so I will probably give it one more go in the ultrasonic with that,  but I'm not really expecting it to help.

Just as a reminder with your enthusiasm of trying things. With the watch cleaner do not elevate the temperature use it at room temperature and Longer for cleaning is not better. Usually around four minutes works may be five but do not leave it in the cleaning solution as bad things will occur.

Then you really need a different solution like something designed for screws like something like this. I find that work a drop or two on the screw and wait a little while and I've never had a problem. Then I have a link to the company manufactures This product but I do know there would be other penetrating fluids for screws this just happens to be the one we have at work and it does work really well

https://westernoptical.com/products/screw-loosening-fluid

 

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

The screw heads of the ratchet and crown wheel screws look the same. This in some movements (Usually AS ones) is a sign that they both are lefthand threaded. Did You try tho turn the screw clockwise?

Then the unfortunate classic problem In watch repair left or right handed Screw? Made considerably worse by turning it in the wrong direction and yes this can be quite a nightmare.

Then unidentified movement I don't suppose you have the dimensions? Like what is the diameter of the dial side plate. Then a picture of the setting components found on that side as we may be able to identify the watch from that information.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, ChrisInOz said:

Hi Folks.

For the past five days I have been trying to free a stuck ratchet wheel screw on an unidentified Swiss movement.  I have been reading the helpful posts on this forum about stuck screws,  and have tried everything mentioned I think.

To save everyone's time,  I will give a list of what I have done so far.  At every stage I am attempting both clockwise and anticlockwise movement of the screw.

1. 30 minute soak in Evaporust,  because rust was present on the ratchet wheel.  Rust was removed,  but screw was not freed.
2. 5 minutes in Ultrasonic cleaner with PC board cleaning fluid.
3. Rinse in distilled water,  followed by 5 minutes ultrasonic in Isopropyl Alcohol
4. Overnight soak in WD40,  followed by rinse in Naphtha.  Screw still stuck.
5. 5 minutes ultrasonic cleaning in Naphtha,  followed by IPA rinse
6. 48 hour soak in Coca Cola.  This turned the ratchet wheel,  click and their screws completely black,  but did not free the screw.
7. At this point I was beginning to think the screw had been superglued in place,  so I soaked the parts overnight in Acetone,  which is a solvent for cyanoacrylates.  Still, the screw was not freed.
8. Last resort,  I set my soldering iron to 400C,  and heated the screw head for a full minute.  

At some point in all of that,  my efforts caused the lid to come off the mainspring barrel,  which of course is still trapped in the bridge by the ratchet wheel screw stuck in its arbor.  The arbor is also completely blackened by the coca cola.  The spring is out of the barrel,  so it escaped the Coke treatment.

Today I finally received my delivery of L&R extra fine watch cleaning fluid,  so I will probably give it one more go in the ultrasonic with that,  but I'm not really expecting it to help.

Correct me if I am wrong,  but I am thinking that turning my blowtorch on the ratchet wheel would be a bad idea.

Some pictures of the movement

You can see someone has been here before me.  The screw heads came pre-chowdered,  though I may have made them worse later, after I took the picture above.

The balance and the other parts all seem to be in good shape,  so I feel like I have a good chance of getting this to run if I can just get past the current problem.

Above is the barrel bridge after evaporust treatment.   The click looks black already,  so maybe the Coke was not entirely to blame.

Movement came with a really nice dial and hands.  I'd love to get it running.  It seems to have just been left in a drawer,  uncased, for about 30 years.

One more pic,  from before I removed the train bridge.

Chemical rust removers usually contain acids that eat away at the steel oxide, problem is.... it also attacks the good steel. Coke contains phosphoric acid ...hard to believe that folk drink this crap..... it gives our Calcium such a hard time. If i were doing this, my first thought would be to determine which way that screw has to turn to come undone. 

Do as John suggests with identifying the movement, at least then you ask ' does anyone know LHT or RHT ratchet and crown wheel screws ?'

[JohnR725]

9 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Coke contains phosphoric acid ...hard to believe that folk drink this crap

What what do you mean by crap I continuously see references on this group that Coca-Cola is the ideal solution to everything although I don't recall if anyone recommended drinking it? You really don't want to look at the fine chemical details of a lot of the things we eat they have a lot of amusing substances.

Then thinking of natural organic products like Coca-Cola I think I've seen recommendations of using  tea As that probably has some mild acid in it also.

Then the classic problem of a little is good but a lot can be bad in particular with rust removers. Yes I've seen screws that turned black not good at all and no they still will not come out. Or worst-case you can start dissolving the screws with whatever the acids are.

[Waggy]

I know that some commercial rust removers contain acids and as @Neverenoughwatches states they attack all of the steel indiscriminately, other substances with acids in it eg coke will do the same and who knows what the other ingredients are doing. Other rust removers do not contain acids and only remove the iron oxide (rust), the side effect of this reaction can be blackening of the steel in some cases, but for light rust and short exposure this is often not the case - a little often is better than a long soak in my experience. I know some users on here advocate using coke, but there are much better alternatives out there so it blows my mind when they come on here advising it as some kind of panacea.

We are so methodical and cautious in other aspects of watch making (reference the other discussions on lubrication, cleaning fluids and use of epilame for example) and then we are blasé about dunking parts in a soft drink?!?!

Rant over!

[ChrisInOz]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Then unidentified movement I don't suppose you have the dimensions? Like what is the diameter of the dial side plate. Then a picture of the setting components found on that side as we may be able to identify the watch from that information.

Diameter I measured at 23.4 mm,  which seems closest to 10.5 lignes.

Dial side image,  keyless works already partly disassembled, but yoke and yoke spring still in place.

Balance jewel is mounted in a brass insert.  There is no anti-shock system fitted.

unfortunately I didn't think to get a pic immediately after taking off the dial,  but here are the individual components of the motion and keyless works.

 

 

 

 

[tomh207]

@rjenkinsgb posted a rust removal recipe a while back, I think he also posted one for penetrating solution too but I can’t find it right now.

 

5g tetra sodium EDTA (the rust chelation component)

100ml deionised water

citric acid to bring the ph to measure 6.5PH

 

Rob, if you see this can you repost the other recipe please and any advice for use of both?

 

Tom

[ChrisInOz]

2 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

Did You try tho turn the screw clockwise?

Yes,  I tried both ways after each cleaning step.

9 minutes ago, Waggy said:

We are so methodical and cautious in other aspects of watch making (reference the other discussions on lubrication, cleaning fluids and use of epilame for example) and then we are blasé about dunking parts in a soft drink?!?!

I did leave it almost to the last ,  but more than one person here had reported success with it so I gave it a try.

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Then you really need a different solution like something designed for screws like something like this. I find that work a drop or two on the screw and wait a little while and I've never had a problem. Then I have a link to the company manufactures This product but I do know there would be other penetrating fluids for screws this just happens to be the one we have at work and it does work really well

https://westernoptical.com/products/screw-loosening-fluid

 

Thanks,  I have found an Australian supplier for this and placed an order.  I should have it in two or three days hopefully.

[nickelsilver]

Shock is one of the best things to release a rusted together part. If you have a staking tool, rest the barrel arbor in a stump, and come down with a flat face punch on the screw, good contact, then one sharp smack with the hammer. If you don't have a staking tool, you can try with some other means of support and punch but would be less ideal.

 

Then work the screw, putting pressure in both directions, until it starts to move. As said, there's a chance it's left hand thread, but sometimes going the "wrong" way a little helps loosen things up.

[Klassiker]

The problem I see in this case with rust removers is how to get them to where they are needed? Soaking has the unfortunate side-effect of damage to all other surfaces. I would use penetrating oil together with alternating heat and cold. You can get freeze sprays which shock-cool parts to enhance the effect of your soldering iron. Sooner or later, with enough cycles, it will come loose. Knowing which way to turn the screw would be a big advantage too.

[Bonefixer]

24 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

 

Then work the screw, putting pressure in both directions, until it starts to move. As said, there's a chance it's left hand thread, but sometimes going the "wrong" way a little helps loosen things up.

In my day job, particularly removing screws that have been in for years, I always tighten the screw a tiny bit before undoing it - breaks any bony ongrowth and if the screwdriver slips in the screw head and rounds it off a bit you can still unscrew it ok. 
 

There are other more extreme techniques for getting out stuck or broken screws from bones. None involve soaking in coke

[rjenkinsgb]

56 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

can you repost the other recipe please and any advice for use of both?

The penetrating oil mix is 50:50 Acetone and automatic transmission fluid; it's a common mix used by many mechanics and engineers.

The only commercial penetrating fluid that works better, from what I've seen is something called "Liquid Wrench".

Heating, when the parts are compatible, works best of all - but with delicate parts you can't use much heat without risking damage.

Re. the usage of the rust remover - it seems to have very little effect on clean metal, though I have not tried soaking small parts for long periods.

The penetrating mix should be totally safe as long as it's only in contact with metal, in a glass container - acetone breaks down many plastics and adhesives.

[ChrisInOz]

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

Shock is one of the best things to release a rusted together part. If you have a staking tool, rest the barrel arbor in a stump, and come down with a flat face punch on the screw, good contact, then one sharp smack with the hammer. If you don't have a staking tool, you can try with some other means of support and punch but would be less ideal.

 

Then work the screw, putting pressure in both directions, until it starts to move. As said, there's a chance it's left hand thread, but sometimes going the "wrong" way a little helps loosen things up.

Thanks,  that's a great idea.  I just checked my staking set and I don't have a stump with a wide enough hole for the barrel arbor,  but I can probably turn one up on the lathe. 

Would it be right to use a punch that is close to the same diameter as the screw head,  or would a narrower one work better?

1 hour ago, Klassiker said:

You can get freeze sprays which shock-cool parts to enhance the effect of your soldering iron. Sooner or later, with enough cycles, it will come loose. Knowing which way to turn the screw would be a big advantage too.

Sounds good.  I have a can of freeze spray somewhere.  

I presume I should heat the ratchet wheel with the soldering iron, then apply the freeze spray to the screw head,  with a view to shrinking the screw within the expanded wheel.  Is that right?

Edited November 19, 2024 by ChrisInOz
added question

[MikeEll]

3 hours ago, ChrisInOz said:

Diameter I measured at 23.4 mm,  which seems closest to 10.5 lignes.

Dial side image,  keyless works already partly disassembled, but yoke and yoke spring still in place.

Balance jewel is mounted in a brass insert.  There is no anti-shock system fitted.

unfortunately I didn't think to get a pic immediately after taking off the dial,  but here are the individual components of the motion and keyless works.

 

 

 

 

I think its a Gruen 240 movement.

Very similar to this one - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/286073258459

Hmm, on second thoughts maybe not.  Similar but not identical.  For £15 though, I'd be tempted for spares.  You might even get lucky and be able to use it as a replacement movement.

 

Edited November 19, 2024 by MikeEll

[Klassiker]

4 hours ago, ChrisInOz said:

I presume I should heat the ratchet wheel with the soldering iron, then apply the freeze spray to the screw head,  with a view to shrinking the screw within the expanded wheel.  Is that right?

You can try that way. Why not? If you can generate some relative expansion and contraction between the threaded parts, so much the better. I would just alternately heat and cool the screw head and expect that to eventually break the bond and draw in any penetrating oil.

[nevenbekriev]

6 hours ago, ChrisInOz said:

Thanks,  that's a great idea.  I just checked my staking set and I don't have a stump with a wide enough hole for the barrel arbor,  but I can probably turn one up on the lathe. 

Would it be right to use a punch that is close to the same diameter as the screw head,  or would a narrower one work better?

Only downside pivot of the arbor must get in a hole, the arbor itself should be supported on the stump.

Heat/cool method doesn't work in small objects like watch parts. They have small mass and the temperature spreads very fast.

[MikeEll]

6 hours ago, ChrisInOz said:

Thanks,  that's a great idea.  I just checked my staking set and I don't have a stump with a wide enough hole for the barrel arbor

I don think it needs to be wider than the barrel arbour, ideally the arbour needs to just rest on a stump, right?  The shock travels through the screw, through the arbour, and directly on to the stump.

[rjenkinsgb]

I've just completes a nine hour long-soak test with the EDTA rust remover, to see the effect on small parts; I've posted the result separately in the walkthroughs and techniques section, rather than confusing this thread.

 

[ChrisInOz]

10 hours ago, MikeEll said:

I think its a Gruen 240 movement.

Very similar to this one - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/286073258459

Hmm, on second thoughts maybe not.  Similar but not identical.  For £15 though, I'd be tempted for spares.  You might even get lucky and be able to use it as a replacement movement.

 

Great find.  It looks very similar indeed. 

One very interesting difference I notice is that the crown and ratchet screw heads on the one you found have beveled edges and appear to be more substantial than those on my movement.   I wonder if mine has been fitted with after market screws at some time.

[Neverenoughwatches]

12 hours ago, Bonefixer said:

In my day job, particularly removing screws that have been in for years, I always tighten the screw a tiny bit before undoing it - breaks any bony ongrowth and if the screwdriver slips in the screw head and rounds it off a bit you can still unscrew it ok. 
 

There are other more extreme techniques for getting out stuck or broken screws from bones. None involve soaking in coke

  Old joiners trick for removing tight screws

[MikeEll]

21 minutes ago, ChrisInOz said:

Great find.  It looks very similar indeed. 

One very interesting difference I notice is that the crown and ratchet screw heads on the one you found have beveled edges and appear to be more substantial than those on my movement.   I wonder if mine has been fitted with after market screws at some time.

Yeah, I thought the same.  I think more likely it was a design improvement to add slightly thicker screws on later movements.  It might simply be a total coincidence, who knows.

I did a lookup in the old Bestfit catalogues based on the setting lever and yoke shapes you posted.

Edited November 19, 2024 by MikeEll

[RichardHarris123]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Old joiners trick for removing tight screws

Old joiners hit it with a bigger hammer.  Hehe. 

[ChrisInOz]

4 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Old joiners hit it with a bigger hammer.  Hehe. 

Old engineers say "it can't be stuck if it's liquid,"  but that seems a little extreme for horology.

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Old joiners hit it with a bigger hammer.  Hehe. 

That as well .....Nicklesilver has it correct....impact will crack the theaded bond.