Moseley Jeweling Caliper Rest

[SwissSeiko]

Hey all. I recently purchased this Moseley Jeweling Caliper, and it appears to be too small for my lathe. I cannot find any information on these, but ive always wanted one to complete my lathe setup. Does anyone know if this is for the 6mm lathe? Or does it mount to a shoe? If I have to get a 6mm lathe I will, but I'll wait for a Moseley to come up.

[SwissSeiko]

Well I figured the silence on this post meant everyone knew as much as I did. So I designed this part in CAD to attach to the rest and the lathe bed. I don't have a CNC mill, so I sent it out for machining. I'll update this post once I receive it. I'll have to make a new locking pin for the cam lever to accommodate the added length, but that won't be hard.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2024 by SwissSeiko

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 11/13/2024 at 2:23 AM, SwissSeiko said:

Hey all. I recently purchased this Moseley Jeweling Caliper, and it appears to be too small for my lathe. I cannot find any information on these, but ive always wanted one to complete my lathe setup. Does anyone know if this is for the 6mm lathe? Or does it mount to a shoe? If I have to get a 6mm lathe I will, but I'll wait for a Moseley to come up.

Thats a cracking piece of kit SS, but something is bugging me about the idea of a jewelling rig for a lathe. 

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, SwissSeiko said:

Well I figured the silence on this post meant everyone knew as much as I did.

or? Typically when I come to the group I ask for new discussions or things that I haven't seen before. But I've noticed for variety reason sometimes discussions are not there. Then a lot of times people are probably only looking at specific sections which means they're not going to see it either.

then what helps if a few people responded say just about anything at all and then the group will notice and we might get an answer perhaps. Although the problem is that is a specialty tool with so many people on the group not even having a lathe at all.

then in one of the lathe books I have a think this is what you have?

 

but even better yet I found a link with pictures looks the same as yours?

https://www.lathes.co.uk/moseley/page4.html

 

 

[SwissSeiko]

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

but even better yet I found a link with pictures looks the same as yours?

https://www.lathes.co.uk/moseley/page4.html

 

 

Yes that is the tool I have. I even emailed Tony over at lathes.co.uk to see what info he had. I haven't heard back yet. All the books i have seen that mention this, don't really explain how to use it. I seems self explanatory, but im struggling to see how setting the jewel opening makes a difference when there is 2 stops, and they are both on the same side of the device.

 

9 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thats a cracking piece of kit SS, but something is bugging me about the idea of a jewelling rig for a lathe. 

This is just for making a jewel setting or opening a hole in a plate, or really whatever you wanted to make a hole in. Apparently some even use it for light milling.

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, SwissSeiko said:

Yes that is the tool I have. I even emailed Tony over at lathes.co.uk to see what info he had. I haven't heard back yet. All the books i have seen that mention this, don't really explain how to use it. I seems self explanatory, but im struggling to see how setting the jewel opening makes a difference when there is 2 stops, and they are both on the same side of the device.

 

This is just for making a jewel setting or opening a hole in a plate, or really whatever you wanted to make a hole in. Apparently some even use it for light milling.

I figured as much SS....seeing the reamer. What's bugging me is how the plate is held in the lathe... is it firmly fixed ?

[SwissSeiko]

57 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I figured as much SS....seeing the reamer. What's bugging me is how the plate is held in the lathe... is it firmly fixed ?

It will sit on the bed of the lathe, the caliper rest will sit on top of it, and a longer cam locking shaft will go through all 3 and lock them both to the bed, the same as how the current headstock, tool rest, and tailstock attach to the bed.

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, SwissSeiko said:

don't really explain how to use it

I have some other books will have a chance I'll look to them now that I know exactly what I'm looking for.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

11 hours ago, SwissSeiko said:

It will sit on the bed of the lathe, the caliper rest will sit on top of it, and a longer cam locking shaft will go through all 3 and lock them both to the bed, the same as how the current headstock, tool rest, and tailstock attach to the bed.

Ah sorry, i didn't explain myself very well there. So the hole that you want to ream out in a watch plate/bridge or whatever....are they fastened down to a faceplate ? and is the headstock pulley locked in position or is the faceplate free to move to. Whats bugging me is that the cutting action of the reamer needs movement from the workpiece when opening up a hole 

[tomh207]

12 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Ah sorry, i didn't explain myself very well there. So the hole that you want to ream out in a watch plate/bridge or whatever....are they fastened down to a faceplate ? and is the headstock pulley locked in position or is the faceplate free to move to. Whats bugging me is that the cutting action of the reamer needs movement from the workpiece when opening up a hole 

I would expect it would be used in conjunction with a watchmaker faceplate in the headstock which would hold the main plate or bridge to be worked on. Same as you would to bore out the recesses in the main plate for the wheels.

 

Tom

[Neverenoughwatches]

15 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

I would expect it would be used in conjunction with a watchmaker faceplate in the headstock which would hold the main plate or bridge to be worked on. Same as you would to bore out the recesses in the main plate for the wheels.

 

Tom

I wondered what the reamers are then. In the case of a jewelling tool the workpiece needs to free float on the base of it, just held between fingers and not clamped down. The design of the seitz cutters creates eccentric movement from whatever it  is reaming so it has to be free-floating. 

[tomh207]

7 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I wondered what the reamers are then. In the case of a jewelling tool the workpiece needs to free float on the base of it, just held between fingers and not clamped down. The design of the seitz cutters creates eccentric movement from whatever it  is reaming so it has to be free-floating. 

Different techniques for different tools Rich is my thought. With the Seitz tool you are enlarging an original hole to fit a bigger jewel generally. With the lathe you are creating that original jewel position and setting as that will be much more accurate than using a drill press followed by the Seitz tool. As I understand it this would have been the way to make plates and bridges long before the advent of CNC and jig boring.

 

Tom

[Neverenoughwatches]

28 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

Different techniques for different tools Rich is my thought. With the Seitz tool you are enlarging an original hole to fit a bigger jewel generally. With the lathe you are creating that original jewel position and setting as that will be much more accurate than using a drill press followed by the Seitz tool. As I understand it this would have been the way to make plates and bridges long before the advent of CNC and jig boring.

 

Tom

A lathe set up will be much more accurate, tighter tolerances and undetectable run out ( the big old lathe I set up earlier this week i can see no run out at all under low magnification  ) in comparison with a Seitz Jewelling tool that is wobbly as hell. I was just curious if the same method was used with the reaming process on a lathe and maybe the headstock spindle is not locked off so that the fixed workpiece can semi float around within the spindle's movement. 

[tomh207]

The plate would be held rigid in the faceplate and rotating with the target hole at the centre point of the faceplate Rich. Then a drill used to create a pilot hole, this would then be bored out using a boring bare in a crosslide for best accuracy, or reamed to size with the tailstock attachment.

 

hope this makes sense Rich @Neverenoughwatches

 

Tom

[JohnR725]

On 11/12/2024 at 6:23 PM, SwissSeiko said:

Jeweling Caliper,

I don't suppose you got all the cutters that are supposed to come with the tool? Then I quoted something above caliper isn't that something used for measuring? Why would a tool that has cutters do measuring?

18 hours ago, SwissSeiko said:

I seems self explanatory,

the problem is it's not because there's something you don't understand?

18 hours ago, SwissSeiko said:

This is just for making a jewel setting or opening a hole in a plate, or really whatever you wanted to make a hole in. Apparently some even use it for light milling.

I notice everyone keeps making references to making holes? Yes I'm deliberately being cryptic because I'm not sure that you really grasp what exactly this tool is used  for? Yes it's for making a jewel setting but what kind of setting why would you need such an exotic tool to make a hole?

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, tomh207 said:

The plate would be held rigid in the faceplate and rotating with the target hole at the centre point of the faceplate Rich. Then a drill used to create a pilot hole, this would then be bored out using a boring bare in a crosslide for best accuracy, or reamed to size with the tailstock attachment.

 

hope this makes sense Rich @Neverenoughwatches

 

Tom

Thats the bit I don't understand Tom unless the reamers used for the lathe jewelling tool are different or the set up is for something completely different, seems an elaborate rig to carry out the same task as the Seitz jewelling tool. We had a discussion about a year or so back,someone commented ( the guy was making himself a pivot gauge to jewel out ) on the movement that the reamer's of the Seitz tool makes on a piece to be reamed out, the reamers have a leading edge that cuts  eccentrically causing the workpiece to move around, that means the piece should not be clamped only held loosely between the fingers of the operator or a clamp that has some free movement. Fixed in a lathe wouldn't allow that to happen so I'm figuring SS's tool works or does something different to just making a hole ?

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

notice everyone keeps making references to making holes? Yes I'm deliberately being cryptic because I'm not sure that you really grasp what exactly this tool is used  for? Yes it's for making a jewel setting but what kind of setting why would you need such an exotic tool to make a hole?

For making rubbed in jewel settings ? For balance settings  ?

[tomh207]

46 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thats the bit I don't understand Tom unless the reamers used for the lathe jewelling tool are different or the set up is for something completely different, seems an elaborate rig to carry out the same task as the Seitz jewelling tool. We had a discussion about a year or so back,someone commented ( the guy was making himself a pivot gauge to jewel out ) on the movement that the reamer's of the Seitz tool makes on a piece to be reamed out, the reamers have a leading edge that cuts  eccentrically causing the workpiece to move around, that means the piece should not be clamped only held loosely between the fingers of the operator or a clamp that has some free movement. Fixed in a lathe wouldn't allow that to happen so I'm figuring SS's tool works or does something different to just making a hole ?

For making rubbed in jewel settings ? For balance settings  ?

What I’m on about is a bit different than the Seitz process Rich. The Seitz process is less accurate, if for instance you are replacing a bushing for a Seiko 6139 barrel, it can be done wit the Seitz tool to ream however it is preferable to bore it out as it is more accurate.  The Seitz tool cannot correct any misalignment of a hole by reaming, however boring can. To achieve the accuracy for initially making a plate it is normal to bore after drilling as using a drill is inherently inaccurate. Reamers are generally multi point cutting tools, as are drills whereas single point tools are more accurate as you can alter the cut incrementally thereby reducing flexing in the tool whereas you cannot do that with a. Multipoint tool. 
 

I’m maybe going too far back towards the manufacture rather than repair. I would suspect that this tool is maybe more rigid and likely cheaper than a crosslide for manufacturing. I’m eager to see what @JohnR725 digs up from his library. There seems to be a wealth of tools in this field to the uninitiated would do the same job unfortunately we don’t yet have the experience or knowledge ourselves to discern the differences which may at first seem nuanced however would be huge gaps seen by expert eyes.

 

and don’t go correcting my atrocious grammar and sentence formation or I’ll get all curmueonly on ya and chase you off my lawn

 

Tom

[SwissSeiko]

This can be used in conjunction with a faceplate chuck, to either slightly widen an existing hole or just create a new hole. It is also used without the faceplate chuck, such as when cutting a new jewel setting from brass stock. This is used as follows, from my understanding of the books I have:

You set the cutter at the center of the workpiece to be cut, but turning the lead screw. Then you adjust the stop to sit flush with where the swing is currently located. Then you screw open the swing arm, and place your jewel, or arbor or setting or whatever it is you want to reference to cut, within the space between the stop you just set, and the swingarm, and adjust it to be flush on both sides. Then remove your jewel, and advance the cutter into the workpiece, then turn the large leadscrew until it bottoms out on the stop you set. This is all my interpretation as I have never seen one of these used before, and my lathe book seems to assume you'll know how to use it. I find it a bit odd that its designed to cut from out to in, whereas I would want to start the cut in the center and then swing it out.

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thats the bit I don't understand Tom unless the reamers used for the lathe jewelling tool are different or the set up is for something completely different, seems an elaborate rig to carry out the same task as the Seitz jewelling tool. We had a discussion about a year or so back,someone commented ( the guy was making himself a pivot gauge to jewel out ) on the movement that the reamer's of the Seitz tool makes on a piece to be reamed out, the reamers have a leading edge that cuts  eccentrically causing the workpiece to move around, that means the piece should not be clamped only held loosely between the fingers of the operator or a clamp that has some free movement. Fixed in a lathe wouldn't allow that to happen so I'm figuring SS's tool works or does something different to just making a hole ?

For making rubbed in jewel settings ? For balance settings  ?

This thing basically will just replicated whatever you put between the stops, but at 50% of their diameter, since you'll be turning the piece from center. Its a clever tool, but there does seem to be a bit of mystery surrounding it. I think the mystery, is I'm making it seem more complicated than it is, and the vintage lathe books like stated above seem to believe you'll know how to use it. 

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

For making rubbed in jewel settings ?

yes this is exactly what the tool is used for.

problem is this is such a specialty tool to do something that commonly isn't done anymore. Which is one of the reasons it's very hard to find any information on such a tool. then when I get a chance I'll see if I can scan the pages from the book I have plus I have another book I need to look at but I need to move some stuff so I can get to it

 

[JohnR725]

Even though this is a different brand for those curious as to what exactly the tool is used for here is examples of how the tool can be used. Then you will note that he has one single cutter that rotates I know often times though have individual cutters.

 

https://www.historictimekeepers.com/Making a center jewel.htm

 

 

[SwissSeiko]

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Even though this is a different brand for those curious as to what exactly the tool is used for here is examples of how the tool can be used. Then you will note that he has one single cutter that rotates I know often times though have individual cutters.

 

https://www.historictimekeepers.com/Making a center jewel.htm

 

 

Thanks for looking into this John. I'm still waiting for my adapter to be made. And in a wild turn of events, another moseley jeweling caliper popped up on ebay and sold for around $200. I regret not buying that one.