Balance Problems - Cal.684

[Latetothegame]

I’ve been working on servicing an Omega Cal.684 movement in a vintage Tank Compressor watch.  Some members have helped me with 1. Getting the case open and 2. Replacing a spring on the lower incabloc.  Both of those problems were resolved as part of a separate topic.  However, I have now been faced with a series of other problems.  I’ll focus on the latest here.  After reassembling the watch the balance had an extremely low amplitude.  Less than 90 degrees.  I have been unable to resolve that issue.  It appears to me that the most likely issue is a cracked upper hole jewel in the Charon.  After dipping the jewels in solvent to clean them I found a tiny piece of a jewel in the bottom of the  container.  I don’t have a microscope and I cannot see where it came from with the optics that I have. However, when I removed the upper Incabloc jewels to see the effect on the amplitude,  it stayed extremely low.   Amplitude usually stays reasonably constant when I remove those jewels for cleaning.  I checked the pivots and they are not broken or bent.  The incabloc jewels have been cleaned.  The hair spring “WAS “in good shape. I was considering that it could be an end shake problem but I didn’t change any jewels or remove the incabloc setting so I don’t know why the spacing would have changed. In an effort to  eliminate suspects I was curious as to how the balance would perform if the pallet fork was removed so I took it out.  I blew a couple firm puffs of air from my small rubber ball blower onto the balance.  I was quite unpleasantly surprised to see that the hair spring actually blew out from between the balance  wheel and the balance cock and somehow wrapped twice over the top on the the balance cock.  Wow.  Didn’t know that was possible.    Now the 684 movement is TINY and that may have something to do with that.  So, now to my specific problem.  Please see attached pictures.  The hair spring is a mess.  I was able to remove the balance cock and untangle the hair spring without destroying it.  It look fixable to me.  My issue is it’s TINY and and it does not appear to have a collet that looks like any other collet I’ve worked with.  Is the brass sort of wedge shaped object a collet?  Can that be removed?  I don’t really have any tools properly sized for the job but I did get some hand remover tool under the edge of this brass object but it did not budge and I was very concerned I would break the hair spring.  I figured I should know the answer before I pry more aggressively.  Please give me your thoughts.  Once I get the hair spring fixed I’ll ask for some help resolving the low amplitude problem.  Thanks!

Edited November 12 by Latetothegame
Update comments

[HectorLooi]

Don't try removing the hairspring yet. I know it looks bad but if you think carefully, both ends of the hairspring were fixed, one end to the stud and the other to the collet. So it couldn't have wound itself into a knot.

I remember watching a video where  a hairspring was detangled just by "spiraling" the stud around. I can't remember if it was by de Carle or Frick.

Found it.

Don't do anything to your hairspring until you watch this. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, HectorLooi said:

Don't try removing the hairspring yet. I know it looks bad but if you think carefully, both ends of the hairspring were fixed, one end to the stud and the other to the collet. So it couldn't have wound itself into a knot.

I remember watching a video where  a hairspring was detangled just by "spiraling" the stud around. I can't remember if it was by de Carle or Frick.

Found it.

Don't do anything to your hairspring until you watch this. 

This is a Fried interview, it shows how he unravesl , straightens bends and flattens springs working to bigger scales than this tiny Omega.

Personally i would want both ends free to work it, the balance would be obstructive. This depends how safe the spring would be while attempting to realease the collet.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

This is a Fried interview, it shows how he unravesl , straightens bends and flattens springs working to bigger scales than this tiny Omega.

The problem isn't so much that he showing large springs the problem is that he has a incredible amount of background knowledge and experience. Basically he's going to make everything look so easy and it is for Henry just not for us.

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Personally i would want both ends free to work it, the balance would be obstructive. This depends how safe the spring would be while attempting to realease the collet

I suppose we can flip a coin and make a choice remove it or leave it on? For now I would tend to leave it on because when it's removed as my experience with omega hairspring is our that their butter soft would be that with both ends free they are free to make things worse. It's a lot easier if only one thing is free than both of them of the balance wheel will give you kind of a reference.

Then the next fun thing to do is proper evaluation of what exactly is the problem? Yes I know it looks bad but how bad is it really?

3 hours ago, Latetothegame said:

Is the brass sort of wedge shaped object a collet?

Yes that really is the collet and conveniently I can't remember the name of it. They started going to other designs like this especially when they got away from using a pin to hold the spring in. 

Ideally you should find something disposable to practice with as opposed to practicing with this. Then take some time to study this because.

2 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Don't try removing the hairspring yet. I know it looks bad but if you think carefully, both ends of the hairspring were fixed, one end to the stud and the other to the collet. So it couldn't have wound itself into a knot.

I remember watching a video where  a hairspring was detangled just by "spiraling" the stud around. I can't remember if it was by de Carle or Frick.

In addition to the video Henry did lots of magazine articles several books and was basically just an extremely interesting person. Who strangely enough I had actually met and talked to on several occasions so yes very interesting person but unfortunately we don't have his experience.

Then in one of his books he has an interesting section on hairsprings. Somewhere in the group we discuss the book because there is a minor problem of it came in various additions and I can't quite remember and not every version has the section on hairsprin's

BENCH PRACTICES by Fried chapter fixing bent hairspring

 

[Nucejoe]

14 hours ago, Latetothegame said:

  I blew a couple firm puffs of air from my small rubber ball blower onto the balance.  I was quite unpleasantly surprised to see that the hair spring actually blew out from between the balance  wheel and the balance cock and somehow wrapped twice over the top on the the balance cock.  

Your hairspring was fouling itself, or sticking, strong air flow messed it up, but the spring couldn't have overlapped nor  knotted as both ends of it STUD & COLLET were fixed.

 

Ref to image 35 that JohnR posted, balance is hanging under it's own weight, hairspring might or might not be overstretched, do not pull the balance down,  lift it a few mm then let go, balance starts swinging up and down vertically, some fouling points get free ,if you can't spot where some of is fouling , try  doubling  the up and down swing,,,  at some point you can spot where it has fouled, your to untangle it with a clean needle or oiler, you might have to repeat the swing or untangle.

Once disentangled,  all spring circles are to be in a plane/ flat / level, or close to it, , if the coil has coned or badly disarrayed  we best call it a goner. 

This type of collet is welded to the staff and is not suppose to be removed/ repaired. 

Edited November 12 by Nucejoe
correction

[Latetothegame]

I just so happened to stumble upon the same Fried video that Hector attached above. Great explanation on how to diagnose and correct hair spring issues.  I was actually able to remove the overlaps in the spring several times by using the spiraling technique. Any additional movement of the spring results in the return of the overlaps.  Unfortunately, the spring is “distended”.  Projecting up in a cone shape from the balance wheel.  The solution recommended by Fried for that problem is to basically turn the hair spring inside out by passing the collet through the outer coils and repeatedly stretching slightly until the spring is returned to flat.  But if this collet is welded in place that will be impossible.  Also, it’s just too small for me to get two sets of tweezers on to the inner coils to attempt to bend the spring to correct either the out of round or out of flat issues.  I’m afraid that with my skill level and equipment available that is not a realistic solution for me.  If the spring was a bit larger, I think I could fix it.   The good news is there are quite a few NOS options available on eBay.  Thanks to all for your comments and suggestions.  

Edited November 12 by Latetothegame
Correction

[AndyGSi]

Is that the complete balance or just the spring you'll be replacing?

[Latetothegame]

The balance complete.  One of the attached member comments indicated that the collet on this balance is welded and not removable.  That was actually my central question.  

[Nucejoe]

 I am not sure if its lazer welded, but might not friction refit  tight enough as it is not adjustable.

 If you intend to attach another hairspring to it, you'd be better off using a fresh old type collet.

Rgds

 

Edited November 12 by Nucejoe
Typo

[Jon]

1 hour ago, Latetothegame said:

The balance complete.  One of the attached member comments indicated that the collet on this balance is welded and not removable.  That was actually my central question.  

There's no problem removing laser welded collets. I do. You just need to close the hole up top and bottom with an inverto staking set with 2 domed stakes before refitting. Use some scalpels to lever the collet off the balance staff. Here's a video of me doing just that in my cloud storage https://drive.google.com/file/d/11S-CURADm81ZdZaaZfEF-sts9g0oXgci/view?usp=sharing

 

Here's a pic of me closing the hole up before fitting back onto the staff

Edited November 12 by Jon

[RichardHarris123]

6 hours ago, Jon said:

Here's a video of me doing just that in my cloud

Why aren't you doing it in your workshop? Hehe. 

Sorry couldn't resist. 

[nevenbekriev]

14 hours ago, Latetothegame said:

I just so happened to stumble upon the same Fried video that Hector attached above. Great explanation on how to diagnose and correct hair spring issues.  I was actually able to remove the overlaps in the spring several times by using the spiraling technique. Any additional movement of the spring results in the return of the overlaps. 

I am not sure if You have got what is shown in the video.

What You call  'the spiraling technique' is meant to move the tangle towards the outer end, where the stud is, then the idea is to prong the end (with the stud) through and thus release the tangle.

The pictures You provide are not clear, but it is well seen on the first one that the central part of the spring is at least not messed. On the last one is seen that the central part, as much as the whole spring, looks bad. It looks like You have moved the tangle towards the center rather than moving it to the end and releasing it. The condition of the spring can not be evaluated before real untangling.  Yes, this is clean to everybody here that this spring is gone, but I assure You that it is still possible to rectify it, just the right skills and knowledge needed. It is small, but it has small quantity of coils and thus the distance between coils is big enough. In the correct hands, after 30 minutes the spring will be good enough for normal work.

Of course the collet can be removed from balance, but as it was mentioned here, at this point it is better for You not to do it. It will be easier for You to fix the balance to the table with piece of rodico, then use a sharp needle to move the tangle(s) little by little towards the outer end and release them. You will need one hand to hold the needle and the other to hold the stud. Holding the stud includes stretching the spring in directions that will help moving the tangle. Only after all tangles removal, You will be able to decide what to do next, and it may include taking the spring off the balance.

[Latetothegame]

I received the NOS balance complete yesterday and installed it in the watch.  The watch is now keeping time and has an acceptable amplitude but the beat error is off significantly.  That seems as if it would be an expected outcome of replacing a balance complete.  So, my question now is how do you adjust to correct beat error on a balance with a laser welded collet?   Do I pry it off and close the hole (as described above) before replacing it for each adjustment?  Also, just FYI, I kept the old balance and hair spring so I can fix it at a later time.  I have a microscope on order.  It’s not something I can manage with a loupe.  I appreciate any help you can provide regarding the beat error issue.  Thanks again.  

[Latetothegame]

 See pic below for a reminder on the size of this movement.  

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, Latetothegame said:

but the beat error is off significantly.  That seems as if it would be an expected outcome of replacing a balance complete.  So, my question now is how do you adjust to correct beat error on a balance with a laser welded collet?   Do I pry it off and close the hole (as described above) before replacing it for each adjustment?  Also, just FYI, I kept the old balance and hair spring so I can fix it at a later time.  

As you have a original Omega balance complete you should never be rotating the collet to adjust the beat. This is because this watch has a movable stud holder and yours is currently at its maximum of one extreme.  I've pasted image down below see you can see approximately where the stud holder should be. Then down below I have a link as we recently discussed the movable stud holder I'm giving you that link also.

 

 

 

 

[Latetothegame]

Thank you and don’t I feel like an idiot. I do know what’s a moveable stud holder is.  I was so distracted by thinking about the “welded collet” and what challenges that presented for fixing the hair spring that I couldn’t see what was right in front of my eyes.  I corrected the beat error in like five minutes.  To date most of my watch projects have been on older, less expensive vintage watches which did not have moveable stud holders so I have had little opportunity to use them.  Obviously a  huge improvement in design.    Thanks again!

Pic of new adjusted position

[RichardHarris123]

1 hour ago, Latetothegame said:

 I was so distracted by thinking about the “welded collet” and what challenges that presented for fixing the hair spring that I couldn’t see what was right in front of my eyes.

There's a term for it, I  can't remember the what, but it's human nature. 

I asked a similar question, again can't remember what but after a coffee and a ten minute chill, I  realised that I knew the answer, I  just couldn't see it. 

Sometimes asked a question can focus your mind.

[Latetothegame]

A pic of the assembled watch for anyone who’s interested.  It’s my friend’s grandfather ‘s Omega watch and it hasn’t run in about 30 years.    To me, there’s nothing about watch making that is more satisfying than fixing a watch that means a lot to a family member.   Again, thank you to everyone who helped.  This forum is literally batting 100% in helping me solve my problems.  

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

There's a term for it, I  can't remember the what, but it's human nature. 

I asked a similar question, again can't remember what but after a coffee and a ten minute chill, I  realised that I knew the answer, I  just couldn't see it. 

Sometimes asked a question can focus your mind.

Cant see the wood for the trees (idiom)......too fixated on a particular small fact that the big picture problem has become invisible.

 

 

6 hours ago, Latetothegame said:

A pic of the assembled watch for anyone who’s interested.  It’s my friend’s grandfather ‘s Omega watch and it hasn’t run in about 30 years.    To me, there’s nothing about watch making that is more satisfying than fixing a watch that means a lot to a family member.   Again, thank you to everyone who helped.  This forum is literally batting 100% in helping me solve my problems.  

Thats nice to know......that we have a group that understands, cares and takes the effort to help another member. Unlike some facebook groups that belittle with sarcastic, condescending remarks with gatekeepering tactics. We are literally the best watch forum on the planet