Vibrasonic cleaning machine(s)

[Knebo]

Hi all, 

I've been hunting for a good watch cleaning machine for a while now. My ideal was a simple Elma Super Elite, but they seem to be getting quite expensive. The cheapest I found (in decent condition) is costing 700 Euros. A cheaper one turned out to be a scam seller.. but I didn't fall for it. 

Anyway, I'm also looking into other machines that are on the market. 

One other type that I could afford is the so-called "Vibrasonic". There seem to be different manufacturers and types. 

They generally have a regular spinning function, but also a vibration mode. I don't think it's ultrasonic, though. 

The general approach to their use can be seen in this video:

 

Here are the two I'm concretely looking into:

1. This one is the Vibrasonic 612 A (by Portescap, France). It also has a heating function (but I don't quite understand where...) 

 

2. The Greiner Vibrasonic 3 (VCS 930). 

 

Well, the above is all I have...not much info. 

Does anyone know more about these machines?? 

[Knebo]

Oh boy, I think I fell for a scam... 

Today, I saw an Elma Super Elite for a good price on the German 2md-hand portal "kleinanzeigen.de". I messaged with the seller and spoke with him on the phone. I thought he was trustworthy. 

He convinced me to make the payment via PayPal Friends and Family.... 

As soon as I did, he didn't respond anymore. 

500 Euro gone 

[AndyGSi]

1 hour ago, Knebo said:

Oh boy, I think I fell for a scam... 

Today, I saw an Elma Super Elite for a good price on the German 2md-hand portal "kleinanzeigen.de". I messaged with the seller and spoke with him on the phone. I thought he was trustworthy. 

He convinced me to make the payment via PayPal Friends and Family.... 

As soon as I did, he didn't respond anymore. 

500 Euro gone 

Was it the old or new version?

[Knebo]

Neither of the above. It was a different ad that popped up today with a classic Elma Super Elite 

 

[AndyGSi]

58 minutes ago, Knebo said:

Neither of the above. It was a different ad that popped up today with a classic Elma Super Elite 

 

I mean old or new version of the machine? It's got to be one or the other?

[Knebo]

You mean blue or off-white? Blue. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 hours ago, Knebo said:

Oh boy, I think I fell for a scam... 

Today, I saw an Elma Super Elite for a good price on the German 2md-hand portal "kleinanzeigen.de". I messaged with the seller and spoke with him on the phone. I thought he was trustworthy. 

He convinced me to make the payment via PayPal Friends and Family.... 

As soon as I did, he didn't respond anymore. 

500 Euro gone 

Aw man, i dont know what friends and family are,something might have just come up with him and thats got you anxious about it, but get onto Paypal if you're really worried.

[Knebo]

Thanks for the optimism, @Neverenoughwatches. Unfortunately, I'm now sure. His Paypal account was under a false name (different from the ID picture he sent me, which was surely stolen) and the 2nd hand site sent me a mail that the user was also reported by another user for fraud. 

PayPal has two types of payments: "Friends and Family" and "Goods and Services". If you choose the former, you waive all rights for money recovery. I was very stupid to be talked into it... 

[JohnR725]

58 minutes ago, Knebo said:

PayPal has two types of payments: "Friends and Family" and "Goods and Services".

 

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

i dont know what friends and family are

Normally when you're using PayPal to buy things off for business websites are totally unaware of this. If you send your friends some money by logging in the PayPal you would typically be unaware of this. But? For instance I was purchasing a watch from a friend basically as a he was helping me out. So when I went in the PayPal I believe was actually given a choice but it defaulted to his business because he does run a business. Because I was getting a very special price I got a very angry email because PayPal subtracted out a fee of five dollars. So had I have used friends and family he what he got the entire $100. As he was doing me a favor I went back in the PayPal paid attention to the choice that I had and PayPal five dollars as a friend so he would have his full $100

1 hour ago, Knebo said:

I'm now sure. His Paypal account was under a false name (different from the ID picture he sent me, which was surely stolen)

No matter what you should still contact PayPal and let them know that there is a problem then they Can close the account and prevent other people from being scammed. Then who knows maybe we'll get some your money back but at least you can stop this person for now know probably get another one.

[AndyGSi]

1 hour ago, Knebo said:

Thanks for the optimism, @Neverenoughwatches. Unfortunately, I'm now sure. His Paypal account was under a false name (different from the ID picture he sent me, which was surely stolen) and the 2nd hand site sent me a mail that the user was also reported by another user for fraud. 

PayPal has two types of payments: "Friends and Family" and "Goods and Services". If you choose the former, you waive all rights for money recovery. I was very stupid to be talked into it... 

If you paid via credit card through PayPal you maybe able to get a refund through them.

[Knebo]

39 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

If you paid via credit card through PayPal you maybe able to get a refund through them.

I've investigated this possibility. Unfortunately, since PayPal paid to the scammer, I owe them the money. If I don't pay them (i.e. block the transaction at the bank), they'll claim it and change me additional fees. 

 

44 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

No matter what you should still contact PayPal and let them know that there is a problem then they Can close the account and prevent other people from being scammed. Then who knows maybe we'll get some your money back but at least you can stop this person for now know probably get another one.

Yes of course. I've reported the scammer on PayPal and on the German 2nd hand website. 

[AndyGSi]

7 minutes ago, Knebo said:

I've investigated this possibility. Unfortunately, since PayPal paid to the scammer, I owe them the money. If I don't pay them (i.e. block the transaction at the bank), they'll claim it and change me additional fees. 

If it was a credit card then they'd still pay PayPal but you'd claim the money back from them.

[JohnR725]

13 hours ago, Knebo said:

500 Euro gone 

It sounds to me like a perfect crime no consequences at all and nothing you can do about it?

[Knebo]

11 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

It sounds to me like a perfect crime no consequences at all and nothing you can do about it?

To be honest, it seems like it. You just have to find an idiot like me.. 

I'm trying to file a police report... but it's surely hopeless. 

[HectorLooi]

Scammers are getting more devious and sophisticated. I recently attended an anti phone scam talk and the speaker related a story that a security expert working for a bank got scammed. I can't imagine what that did to his credibility. 

I sympathize with you and hope that more can be done to combat online fraud. 

[Knebo]

After this drama that killed my budget, I'll now probably settle for a second hand Pearl Janta cleaning machine that I can pick up IN PERSON from a seller here in town (for 250 bucks). 

I know it's not the best machine, but it'll hopefully be fine for my occasional use. 

I'll be posting over in the dedicated thread if anyone has particular things that I should check when/before buying. 

Edited November 8, 2024 by Knebo

[JohnR725]

19 hours ago, Knebo said:

I messaged with the seller and spoke with him on the phone. I thought he was trustworthy

One of the things I like about emails are at least you have something left behind. In other words you can look at your computer and see something as opposed to telephone calls where there's nothing left behind except? You talked on the phone I don't suppose there's a phone number? Plus the messaging did that leave a number behind?

 

4 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

hope that more can be done to combat online fraud. 

Unfortunately I suspect this is a perfect crime as nothing can be done except to alert others for things to watch for.

 

7 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

credit card

The nice thing is about credit cards are they do offer all sorts of protection against things they want you use the card so they do protect you versus other forms of payments where getting your money back can be a bit more difficult if impossible.

 

4 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

security expert working for a bank got scammed

Always nice on a scam like this is if we understood the details? Because on the surface it looks like this person was quite stupid but we don't actually know what the details were.

I remember several years ago one of my friends got scammed on eBay with a second chance offer. What I remembered at the time at least to me it seems very strange he gets a second chance offer and has to pay with a bank transfer and it has to be done immediately or else. Basically a classic scam of your getting a really great deal and you must purchase immediately or else. Or simplistically don't think about it because you might come to your senses and he wire transferred money to who knows where and never got the watch. I felt the warning signs were there strange payment extreme rush but sometimes when you think you're getting something so fantastic.

2 hours ago, Knebo said:

I'll now probably settle for a second hand Pearl Janta cleaning machine that I can pick up IN PERSON from a seller here in town (for 250 bucks). 

I know it's not the best machine, but it'll hopefully be fine for my occasional use. 

You have to tell me how the video turns out as they typically don't watches videos but here's somebody in a video talking about the Perl machine. It's basically a clone of the machine that you really want to purchase.

Then what I can't or don't understand is the Chinese cloned and gave us cheap timing machines Plus all sorts of other watch repair tools why don't they clone and give us cheap cleaning machines?

 

 

[mbwatch]

44 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

why don't they clone and give us cheap cleaning machines?

I am holding out hope this will happen eventually, except where patent encumbrances prevent it.

[HectorLooi]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Then what I can't or don't understand is the Chinese cloned and gave us cheap timing machines Plus all sorts of other watch repair tools why don't they clone and give us cheap cleaning machines?

High quality Chinese made watch automatic cleaning machine for watchmakers to clean watch parts
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mtEsap2

They did. But they cloned the high end machines. My mentor has one of these. Every parameter can be programmed but the instructions and LCD display is all in Chinese. I'm not sure if the default language can be changed.

[JohnR725]

48 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

High quality Chinese made watch automatic cleaning machine for watchmakers to clean watch parts

A impressive looking machine for a good price. Except I don't see the ultrasonic? Still a nice-looking machine for a good price.

 

[HectorLooi]

13 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Except I don't see the ultrasonic?

There is ultrasonic but it is only for the 1st tank.

[JohnR725]

3 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

There is ultrasonic but it is only for the 1st tank

Interesting I wonder how that works? I was looking for the ultrasonic transducer which is why I concluded that it was not ultrasonic. So I assume the transducer must be in the top someplace? So at the price makes it a very interesting machine.

[Neverenoughwatches]

14 hours ago, Knebo said:

Thanks for the optimism, @Neverenoughwatches. Unfortunately, I'm now sure. His Paypal account was under a false name (different from the ID picture he sent me, which was surely stolen) and the 2nd hand site sent me a mail that the user was also reported by another user for fraud. 

PayPal has two types of payments: "Friends and Family" and "Goods and Services". If you choose the former, you waive all rights for money recovery. I was very stupid to be talked into it... 

Aw really sorry mate, that sucks big time. Ive been there though and i always have my wits about me. I once bought a van from a guy that worked for FedEx...he didn't actually own the van...he took a loan out on it so it belonged to the loan company although he could use it....basically used it as collateral. Handed over his log book to the loaner then ordered another log book from our DVLC to give to me. I found out 6 months later when the loan company came after me and their van when he stopped payments on the loan. I found him though at his work 2 weeks later at 4.00am one morning when he turned up for work, lets just say it didnt go well for him, I could hear his workmates laughing in the warehouse next to where i had him pinned to the wall .  Apparently he was known for being a complete a-hole, some folk just ask for everything they get. I hope the guy that did this to you get whats coming to him. 

[Knebo]

@Neverenoughwatches, yea, I wish I ahd any idea where thia guy is. Don't even know the country. 

ANYWAY, I decided to move on with my life and put it in the category "lessons learnt". There's no point in dwelling. 

After a lot of back-and-forth thinking, and considering above Vibrasonics, the Indian Pearl, DIY builds, a half-functional Elma RM90, a Elma Super Automat and Nestromo machines... I was super lucky that a Elma Super Elite came on the local market (Facebook marketplace) yesterday. So back to what I originally wanted. 

I picked it up today and it's in excellent condition. Cost me 550 CHF / 590 EUR. 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Knebo said:

@Neverenoughwatches, yea, I wish I ahd any idea where thia guy is. Don't even know the country. 

ANYWAY, I decided to move on with my life and put it in the category "lessons learnt". There's no point in dwelling. 

After a lot of back-and-forth thinking, and considering above Vibrasonics, the Indian Pearl, DIY builds, a half-functional Elma RM90, a Elma Super Automat and Nestromo machines... I was super lucky that a Elma Super Elite came on the local market (Facebook marketplace) yesterday. So back to what I originally wanted. 

I picked it up today and it's in excellent condition. Cost me 550 CHF / 590 EUR. 

 

Bloody brilliant matey I'm so pleased for you , yep very annoying that you got stung....it happens.... but as well a  lesson learnt. The universe sometimes shows us how it really has our best interests....that dont immediately seem clear to us...think of it as future plan to avoid something worse. Besides you now have a great working machine, exactly what you wanted for a good price......And the prick that ripped you off.....dont you worry about it....the universe has its own plan to deal with him .