Ultrasonic cleaning solution recommentations

[Levine98]

Hi,

I use an ultrasonic machine for cleaning watch parts and am needing recommendations for purchasing a non-ammonia based cleaner. 

For the past 3 years I’ve used Zenith Watch and Clock Cleaning Solution, Formula 67 in lab beakers sitting in heated water in the ultrasonic. It does a decent job and the formula is supposed to be “low fumes” and safer in a confined space compared to traditional ammoniated products.

Now that I’m finally out of Zenith 67 cleaner I need to purchase a gallon of cleaner (and rinse), I’d like to get recommendations regarding a safer non-ammoniated solution that others have had good results with.

thanks in advance—jay

[mikepilk]

I use Elma WF Pro cleaner and Elma Suprol Rinse - only because I can buy them in smaller quantities than L&R solutions. Like you, I use lab beakers (400ml) sat in water at 30-40°C. To reduce smell, I use a disc of plastic packing foam pushed in to the top of the beaker. The cleaner doesn't smell much, but the rinse stinks. 

I'm very pleased with the results, it really makes the parts shine. 

[SwissSeiko]

I use Liquinox in my ultrasonic cleaner. It does a good job of cleaning, but doesnt have brighteners that the ammonia based ones do. I also will sometimes have an issue with flash rusting, so I'm looking for an alternative, but it works very well so far. The issues I have dont happen every time.

 

According to the MSDS -

L&R 111 is mostly 60-65 % Mineral spirits and 15-20% naptha, with some other additives like 1-5 % ammonium hydroxide which is just ammonia and water. It has other additives like 1-5 % Oleic acid, which is an unsaturated fatty acid. Maybe could substitute Peanut Oil

L&R Watch Rinse is just 70-80 % Mineral Spirits and 20-30 % naptha

 

So in this case, I may try to concoct a solution that matches these and see if I like that solution.

Edited November 15, 2024 by SwissSeiko
more info

[Levine98]

On 11/15/2024 at 10:39 AM, SwissSeiko said:

I use Liquinox in my ultrasonic cleaner. It does a good job of cleaning, but doesnt have brighteners that the ammonia based ones do. I also will sometimes have an issue with flash rusting, so I'm looking for an alternative, but it works very well so far. The issues I have dont happen every time.

 

According to the MSDS -

L&R 111 is mostly 60-65 % Mineral spirits and 15-20% naptha, with some other additives like 1-5 % ammonium hydroxide which is just ammonia and water. It has other additives like 1-5 % Oleic acid, which is an unsaturated fatty acid. Maybe could substitute Peanut Oil

L&R Watch Rinse is just 70-80 % Mineral Spirits and 20-30 % naptha

 

So in this case, I may try to concoct a solution that matches these and see if I like that solution.

I’ve decided to give the L&R non ammoniated ultrasonic cleaner/rinse a try.  Expensive but want a straight forward and simple set of solutions since my storage and prep space is very limited. 
 

thanks

[JohnR725]

On 11/15/2024 at 7:39 AM, SwissSeiko said:

L&R 111

I thought that 111 was the version with ammonia and we were discussing non ammoniated?

2 hours ago, Levine98 said:

L&R non ammoniated ultrasonic cleaner

Then I assume you mean the number 566? Then in case somebody's looking for safety sheets of the chemicals I have a link below. Then the second link is for the product itself with suggestions for use. I don't know if for the non-ammonia aided as it has the chemical in there to brighten the weather would have the same effect as ammonia? Specifically want to be careful with watch cleaning products unless they actually recommend elevating the temperature typically they do not or unfortunately is the second link below does not specify. In a case elevating the temperature typically speeds up the process and typically will have recommended times based on room temperature not at elevated temperatures. Then even though they only show one rinse typically two or three would be preferred.

https://www.lrultrasonics.com/resources/sds-sheets-resources

https://www.lrultrasonics.com/solutions/566-non-ammoniated-waterless-watch-cleaning-solution-115

 

 

[Levine98]

On 11/21/2024 at 11:54 AM, JohnR725 said:

Then I assume you mean the number 566? Then in case somebody's looking for safety sheets of the chemicals I have a link below…. Specifically want to be careful with watch cleaning products unless they actually recommend elevating the temperature typically they do not…..

 

Yea, I purchased L&R 566 cleaner and the L&R Ultrasonic Rinse (no nbr). I heat the ultrasonic water to 40c then turn off the heater. Since both cleaner and rinse are in 300ml lab beakers sitting in the water, I doubt the actual temp of the cleaner/rinse ever gets above 30c. I do a double rinse, and have an exhaust fan pulling air through my little workshop out the window to help reduce fumes. 

[mikepilk]

I cut some foam to use as a bung on the beaker to cut down on the smell. I use Elma solutions. I guess the formulas are similar to L&R?  The WF Pro cleaner doesn't smell much, but the rinse Suprol Pro absolutely stinks.  

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Levine98 said:

cleaner/rinse ever gets above 30c

out of curiosity how many minutes you leave it in the cleaning solution.

[Levine98]

12 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

out of curiosity how many minutes you leave it in the cleaning solution.

10 cleaner and 5 rinse (two rinses in separate solutions). When I change the cleaner I rotate the second rinse to first and refresh second rinse.

2 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I cut some foam to use as a bung on the beaker to cut down on the smell. I use Elma solutions. I guess the formulas are similar to L&R?  The WF Pro cleaner doesn't smell much, but the rinse Suprol Pro absolutely stinks.  

I just tried out the non-ammonia solution today. Still has an oder, just a different one  I think this product is largely mineral spirits, which is a form of naphtha I guess?

anyhow I still vent as best I can using a small window pane venting fan. 

[Jon]

Has anyone tried Heptane or Hexane?

I've just bought 3 litres of Heptane https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/186098040119

This is pretty much the same stuff as Essence Renatta, which is good for a 'one dip' and it's a lot cheaper.

The smell is pretty much non existent and for £10 per litre, it's cheap as chips!

I'll let you know how I get on with it over the next week, as I like to use Essence Renatta for any hand cleaning of parts, because it doesn't stink of ammonia as #111 does, so I'm hoping this is going to be the same, as it is chemically the same stuff.

I'm also sampling a cleaner and rinse from a company called H.P Storey https://www.hpstorey.co.uk/, as they sent me some samples to try and do a write up on them. So far, they are better than L and R cleaner and rinse in their cleaning power, but it's early days and want to see if the same amount of movements can be cleaned as L and R products, but so far the results look really good and it is cheaper, although it smells pungent, even without ammonia in it.

[Neverenoughwatches]

27 minutes ago, Jon said:

Has anyone tried Heptane or Hexane?

I've just bought 3 litres of Heptane https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/186098040119

This is pretty much the same stuff as Essence Renatta, which is good for a 'one dip' and it's a lot cheaper.

The smell is pretty much non existent and for £10 per litre, it's cheap as chips!

I'll let you know how I get on with it over the next week, as I like to use Essence Renatta for any hand cleaning of parts, because it doesn't stink of ammonia as #111 does, so I'm hoping this is going to be the same, as it is chemically the same stuff.

I'm also sampling a cleaner and rinse from a company called H.P Storey https://www.hpstorey.co.uk/, as they sent me some samples to try and do a write up on them. So far, they are better than L and R cleaner and rinse in their cleaning power, but it's early days and want to see if the same amount of movements can be cleaned as L and R products, but so far the results look really good and it is cheaper, although it smells pungent, even without ammonia in it.

There used to be a couple of guys here that swore by Hexane for hairspring cleaning Jon ,they said it evaporated very quickly though and to make sure it was bottled up tight. 

[caseback]

Hexane works fine. When using it for hairsprings, I put them in a small jar filled with some hexane and put that in my ultrasonic for some extra movement. The fluid prevents the coils to tangle up. It's unhealthy stuff though, so make sure you have proper ventilation.

[HectorLooi]

1 hour ago, caseback said:

It's unhealthy stuff though, so make sure you have proper ventilation.

Hexane is used to extract vegetable oils such as canola, sunflower, safflower, soya bean, etc 

Hexane smells a whole lot better than benzine.

[Levine98]

20 minutes ago, HectorLooi said:

Hexane is used to extract vegetable oils such as canola, sunflower, safflower, soya bean, etc 

Hexane smells a whole lot better than benzine.

Doesn’t sound very safe to handle without really good ventilation.

From Wikipedia:

Short-term exposure to high levels of hexane can cause dizziness, headache, nausea, and giddiness. Long-term exposure can cause polyneuropathy, which can lead to numbness in the extremities, muscular weakness, blurred vision, headache, and fatigue. Hexane is a toxic substance that can cause severe nerve damage. 

Edited November 29, 2024 by Levine98

[mikepilk]

15 hours ago, Levine98 said:

10 cleaner and 5 rinse (two rinses in separate solutions). When I change the cleaner I rotate the second rinse to first and refresh second rinse.

With ultrasonic cleaning, you want the minimum time which gets everything clean.

I cut down the times I use to 4 mins clean, 2 mins for each rinse. I've found it's enough to get things really clean.

Documentation for Elma WF Pro cleaner says use for "2-10mins", and Suprol Rinse "about 3 mins".    

[JohnR725]

On 11/29/2024 at 10:04 AM, Levine98 said:

10 cleaner and 5 rinse (two rinses in separate solutions)

school experiences and watch repair can be quite interesting. the first school had a variety of cleaning machines with one of the moved the basket from cycle to cycle and it had a timer of 10 minutes. So they can go 10 minutes I went 10 minutes it also ran with vacuum tubes big vacuum tubes which unfortunately elevates the temperature the cleaning fluid.

Typically with cleaning fluids they do not recommend elevating the temperature as it speeds things up. So what did I learn that day well the solution turned a really pretty blue-green color? That's because the ammonia and I don't know enough about the non-ammonia as it still has brightening properties so I'm going to assume it has the same. In other words the properties will take off the tarnish and make things bright and shiny but once you go beyond that it will start dissolving things like copper in to the solution turns a pretty blue-color and this particular watch that had nice shiny brass plates now had frosty plates. So I tend to really worry about elevated temperatures and long time spans.

In the second school where we had one machine the time control for cleaning had been taped to four minutes. So all day long we are cleaning watches on a continuous basis but not cleaning over four minutes. then that was the cleaning cycle I'm assuming because I can't remember that that would include the rinses to.

the chemicals in the cleaning bath that make things bright and shiny do a nice job as long as you do not speed things up by elevating the temperature and extending the time. As long as your solution is not turning a pretty blue-green color as your dissolving out the copper and his long as everything looks bright and shiny and clean and I guess you're doing okay.

Then personally as far as the rinses go I don't worry about them because they don't have any brightening chemicals. Thought they had to run away and do something I would leave it a longer time span but I To really close eye on the cleaning itself.

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 11/29/2024 at 11:23 PM, Levine98 said:

Doesn’t sound very safe to handle without really good ventilation.

From Wikipedia:

Short-term exposure to high levels of hexane can cause dizziness, headache, nausea, and giddiness. Long-term exposure can cause polyneuropathy, which can lead to numbness in the extremities, muscular weakness, blurred vision, headache, and fatigue. Hexane is a toxic substance that can cause severe nerve damage. 

This can apply to a lot of the cleaning solutions that are used in watchmaking, and I think the key terms here are "high levels" and "long term exposure". If it's use is restricted to cleaning hairsprings only then neither of these terms apply. The amounts used are very small and last for short periods of time, also the usual practice is to clean the hairspring in a capped bottle. But as with all advice caution should be applied because, everyone is different and everyone reacts differently. If you feel unwell from any exposure to a substance you should remove yourself from the environment, or improve the environment in which you are working .

Edited December 1, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches
Added more information and corrected my grammar....note to oneself...seek to improve my grammar or I will not pass my English exam next year

[RichardHarris123]

For us amateurs, we should err on the side of caution when experimenting with new equipment or solutions.  Since we're not on the clock, the cleaning process can be repeated if not satisfactory. 

[Levine98]

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

school experiences and watch repair can be quite interesting. the first school had a variety of cleaning machines with one of the moved the basket from cycle to cycle and it had a timer of 10 minutes. So they can go 10 minutes I went 10 minutes it also ran with vacuum tubes big vacuum tubes which unfortunately elevates the temperature the cleaning fluid.

Typically with cleaning fluids they do not recommend elevating the temperature as it speeds things up. So what did I learn that day well the solution turned a really pretty blue-green color? That's because the ammonia and I don't know enough about the non-ammonia as it still has brightening properties so I'm going to assume it has the same. In other words the properties will take off the tarnish and make things bright and shiny but once you go beyond that it will start dissolving things like copper in to the solution turns a pretty blue-color and this particular watch that had nice shiny brass plates now had frosty plates. So I tend to really worry about elevated temperatures and long time spans.

In the second school where we had one machine the time control for cleaning had been taped to four minutes. So all day long we are cleaning watches on a continuous basis but not cleaning over four minutes. then that was the cleaning cycle I'm assuming because I can't remember that that would include the rinses to.

the chemicals in the cleaning bath that make things bright and shiny do a nice job as long as you do not speed things up by elevating the temperature and extending the time. As long as your solution is not turning a pretty blue-green color as your dissolving out the copper and his long as everything looks bright and shiny and clean and I guess you're doing okay.

Then personally as far as the rinses go I don't worry about them because they don't have any brightening chemicals. Thought they had to run away and do something I would leave it a longer time span but I To really close eye on the cleaning itself.

new knowledge, one of the reasons I love this forum. I will adjust my cleaning regime re: I was not following any particular best practice or someone else’s regime, just made it up, so glad to have this info. Thanks

[Levine98]

On 11/29/2024 at 10:59 AM, mikepilk said:

I cut some foam to use as a bung on the beaker to cut down on the smell. I use Elma solutions. I guess the formulas are similar to L&R?  The WF Pro cleaner doesn't smell much, but the rinse Suprol Pro absolutely stinks.  

I just picked up silicon tops from Amazon for my 300ml  beakers. They come in various sizes so I suspect the next size up would fit you beakers.  Seems to work well, and according to Wikipedia silicon should hold up when exposed to petroleum based fumes.

 
 

[mikepilk]

I'm happy with the foam bung I made. It fits perfectly, doesn't seem to be affected by the solvents, stops the smells, and is free !