Chiming & Striking suspended - or stopped?

[dnhb]

I've been setting up a 'Westminster' mantle clock that hadn't been restarted for a few years after a move. All I had to do was attach the pendulum - that I'd discovered was stuck in a dark corner of the 20" wide case! - adjust it to length & tilt the case a little to get it in beat. It began to chime & strike correctly (after I'd re-attached the hands to match the strike) & ran to time. However, it only 'sounded' for the first 4 hours (all 3 springs were well, but not fully, wound) since when I hear 'the drop' at each quarter but no chime (or strike) ensues. I understand some movements have a self-righting mechanism which suspends sounding until all elements are back in sync. If this is what's happening here how long might the process take ? (I'm hoping this is the situation as I've no experience of adjusting chiming/striking mechanisms).

[AndyGSi]

Is it not striking at all now and how long since it only sounded for 4 hours?

[LittleWatchShop]

45 minutes ago, dnhb said:

I've been setting up a 'Westminster' mantle clock that hadn't been restarted for a few years after a move. All I had to do was attach the pendulum - that I'd discovered was stuck in a dark corner of the 20" wide case! - adjust it to length & tilt the case a little to get it in beat. It began to chime & strike correctly (after I'd re-attached the hands to match the strike) & ran to time. However, it only 'sounded' for the first 4 hours (all 3 springs were well, but not fully, wound) since when I hear 'the drop' at each quarter but no chime (or strike) ensues. I understand some movements have a self-righting mechanism which suspends sounding until all elements are back in sync. If this is what's happening here how long might the process take ? (I'm hoping this is the situation as I've no experience of adjusting chiming/striking mechanisms).

The "autocorrect" feature requires at least a full cycle to right itself.  Manually run the minute hand through a full hour and it should be in sync.

 

[dnhb]

2 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

Is it not striking at all now and how long since it only sounded for 4 hours?

Thanks for your interest. It's neither chimed nor struck(?) for some 12 hours now but, as I mentioned, the 'drop' I can hear each quarter suggests it's trying to.

2 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

The "autocorrect" feature requires at least a full cycle to right itself.  Manually run the minute hand through a full hour and it should be in sync.

 

Thanks. That could be telling as it's gone through many such cycles now with only the quarter hour 'drop' being apparent. Has a clutch in some part of the mechanism perhaps become too 'slippy' after the initial few hours when it was working ok?

[LittleWatchShop]

It probably just needs to be serviced.  I just finished cleaning a strike-only clock where it appeared that someone tried to keep the clock running using WD40.  Finally just gummed up and stopped.  No power to the strike train due solely to the gummed up bushings.

[oldhippy]

You need to remove it from the case and look it over. Chimes normally put themselves right in 2 hours. Post some photos so we can see the movement of both sides and between plates than we can advise. 

[dnhb]

Update: I've just moved the clock slightly in order to adjust the pendulum length (still getting it to run to time) & it gave a full strike. It's now been chiming/striking for an hour or two. I'm not up to removing the movement & taking pictures at the moment (chest cold!) as OH has suggested, but I wonder if this development indicates there's too much friction somewhere in the C/S mechanism - would anyone care to speculate where this might be & whether an appropriately placed & sized drop of oil or grease might help....

[LittleWatchShop]

I am tempted to give a sarcastic remark, but will refrain.  You have 150 posts on this forum, so you have been around awhile. The only way to address your issue is to remove, inspect, disassemble, inspect again, assemble, lubricate, reinstall.  There are no shortcuts if you want it to run correctly.

[dnhb]

21 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I am tempted to give a sarcastic remark, but will refrain.  You have 150 posts on this forum, so you have been around awhile. The only way to address your issue is to remove, inspect, disassemble, inspect again, assemble, lubricate, reinstall.  There are no shortcuts if you want it to run correctly.

.....But not around long enough to know what to look for in such an inspection. As to disassembly, that would be rash given my lack of knowledge & experience of C/S mechanisms. Hence my appeal to those better placed to offer their guidance, given the behaviour I've reported, as to the likely areas for inspection. Thank you anyway for your interest  - & restraint !

[LittleWatchShop]

I just serviced a time and strike circa 1895.  Typically when servicing these, the strike will run at some level even without any cleaning.  This one, no.  What I found is not atypical.  It appeared that sometime in its life an attempt was made to use what was probably WD40.  Anyway, the strike (and time for that matter) was gummed up.  Required a complete disassembly and clean.  It is running and striking great.

There are rarely any shortcuts. 

If you do not want to do a full service, the only cheat I can offer is to pull the movement from the case and put the entire thing in an ultrasonic with coleman camp fuel for half an hour.  Then remove, dry, and oil the pivots and mainspring.  Maybe it will work.

[dnhb]

16 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

I just serviced a time and strike circa 1895.  Typically when servicing these, the strike will run at some level even without any cleaning.  This one, no.  What I found is not atypical.  It appeared that sometime in its life an attempt was made to use what was probably WD40.  Anyway, the strike (and time for that matter) was gummed up.  Required a complete disassembly and clean.  It is running and striking great.

There are rarely any shortcuts. 

If you do not want to do a full service, the only cheat I can offer is to pull the movement from the case and put the entire thing in an ultrasonic with coleman camp fuel for half an hour.  Then remove, dry, and oil the pivots and mainspring.  Maybe it will work.

Thank you for sharing your experience. The C/S mechanism has continued to work for nearly 2 days now. If it does go silent again I will give it a more thorough clean than I did when I first received the clock from my acquaintance who asked me to see if I could get it going.

[watchweasol]

Another method but similar to LWS  is imersion in white spirit (turpentine) with added oil leave overnight . Remove any excess and run the clock , best to remove the power from the springs first.   No substitute for a complete service but may get you out of the hole.  Good luck

[oldhippy]

The trouble is not knowing the condition of the movement, if it is worn and dirty adding oil will make little difference and if it is not oiled correctly you could cause more wear. With out taking it out of its case you will only be able to oil what you can see on the back plate this again is not recommended. Never just put it in some sort of fluid as the barrels will be flooded with the stuff and it will not all come out. The movement should be removed from the case, inspected, taken all to pieces including removing the springs from there barrels then appropriate work undertaken cleaned  assembled  oiled and tested. 

[dnhb]

8 hours ago, oldhippy said:

The trouble is not knowing the condition of the movement, if it is worn and dirty adding oil will make little difference and if it is not oiled correctly you could cause more wear. With out taking it out of its case you will only be able to oil what you can see on the back plate this again is not recommended. Never just put it in some sort of fluid as the barrels will be flooded with the stuff and it will not all come out. The movement should be removed from the case, inspected, taken all to pieces including removing the springs from there barrels then appropriate work undertaken cleaned  assembled  oiled and tested. 

Thanks, OH. I did in fact have it out of the case for inspection after the first time the C/S mechanism stopped (except for the 'drop' continuing every 15 mins). I observed the mechanism as I moved the minute hand 1/4 by 1/4 for a number of revolutions & made slight adjustments based on what I'd learned from books etc about the intended sequence of actions.  I also pegged the pivot holes, front & back, having first applied a little lighter fluid. I oiled them with my watch oilers but I didn't clean or oil any of the active surfaces e.g. the star wheel, cams. It maybe that this lead to the eventual restarting (& currently continuing) of the C/S movement following the slight 'jolt' on pendulum adjustment. My initial post was effectively seeking views - informed guesses, if you like - as to which bits of the mechanism might have been freed up *given* that the 'drop' had continued throughout - which fact I thought,  perhaps wrongly, would narrow the range of possibilities sufficiently for my question to be a reasonable one. My apologies if I've wasted colleagues' time.....

[oldhippy]

You certainly haven't wasted my time I enjoy helping. The best clock oil is  Windles Clock Oil and it isn't expensive.  

[dnhb]

On 11/5/2024 at 9:00 AM, oldhippy said:

You certainly haven't wasted my time I enjoy helping. The best clock oil is  Windles Clock Oil and it isn't expensive.  

In an earlier reply, you suggested I should provide some photos of the movement. The C/S mechanism eventually went back into 'quiet' mode so I removed it & took these pictures. While running it on my suspension block I noticed that on 2 occasions the 2nd hammer had not finished its stroke (this & the 1st hammer nearest the back plate are the joint strikers) & that the C/S mechanism was not working (although the 'drop' still occurred). I could see that a tooth of the cam/wheel that controls this hammer had not quite completed its travel. The first time I saw this I rotated the wheel to 'free' the tooth & it immediately chimed with hammers all lying flat afterwards. The clock went on to chime & strike normally. After some time I again noticed that the same thing had occurred & the C/S mechanism was not working. It seems to me that I need to find the reason why this hammer does not complete its travel from time to time....

[Rixy]

Hi there. If I have misunderstood, please ignore my response.

When the second hammer stops, is that on a particular quarter? If that is the hammer next to the lowest note then it should sound last on the half-past and the o'clock (I think - have been humming it in my head). If you nudge the chime pin barrel and it behaves again, it could be that you need to reset the position of the barrel. The reason it stops 'up' and doesn't go again is perhaps because there just isn't enough power to budge it when it tries to move again (it needs to gain momentum to get going and being stuck, it doesn't get the chance).

I have attached a diagram that might help. What I would do is loosen the ratio wheel, that will free the chime pin barrel, then move the barrel round in its direction of travel (clockwise) a small way (one tooth). Then retighten the ratio wheel. It should then play and clear the last hammer.

I'm sure there will be lots of help with this.

[oldhippy]

Spot on Rixy with that diagram. 

[dnhb]

1 hour ago, Rixy said:

Hi there. If I have misunderstood, please ignore my response.

When the second hammer stops, is that on a particular quarter? If that is the hammer next to the lowest note then it should sound last on the half-past and the o'clock (I think - have been humming it in my head). If you nudge the chime pin barrel and it behaves again, it could be that you need to reset the position of the barrel. The reason it stops 'up' and doesn't go again is perhaps because there just isn't enough power to budge it when it tries to move again (it needs to gain momentum to get going and being stuck, it doesn't get the chance).

I have attached a diagram that might help. What I would do is loosen the ratio wheel, that will free the chime pin barrel, then move the barrel round in its direction of travel (clockwise) a small way (one tooth). Then retighten the ratio wheel. It should then play and clear the last hammer.

I'm sure there will be lots of help with this.

You've already provided "lots of help"! Thank you very much indeed.

I haven't been able to spot at which point it happens but it could well be after the hour point.

Can one move the chime pin (thanks for the terminology) wheels individually or is moving the whole barrel the only option? Do you have any ideas as to how the problem might have started in the first place (it's been a feature since I first set the clock going after it had been left for some years following its relocation).

I'd be v interested to know the source of the helpful illustration.

[Rixy]

The illustration is from Practical Clock Repairing by Donald de Carle. I'm sure OH is familiar with it, as will many others here. It's quite an old book but explains an awful lot.

You cannot move individual wheels. The whole barrel moves (moving just one would create a new tune - all the right notes but not in the right order!)

I'm not sure how it might have happened unless someone in the past tinkered with it or there is slippage in the system.  Have you checked all the teeth and bushings?

When rotating the barrel observe the movement of the hammers. When you see 'four in a row' (1234) that is the quarter past chime. That way, if you get lost you can roll on and find your way back.

Here is a diagram of the front plate from the same book.

[oldhippy]

My master taught me with a westminster chime on the quieter past the hammers go down the scale and on the quieter too as it chimes three times the last also goes down the scale. When setting these clocks up when it comes to the warning no hamer should start to lift and after it has chimed no hamer should be stuck. The way to sort this is to unscrew the ratio wheel and adjust.  

[transporter]

On 11/5/2024 at 9:00 AM, oldhippy said:

You certainly haven't wasted my time I enjoy helping. The best clock oil is  Windles Clock Oil and it isn't expensive.  

Hi OH, I took your advice a good time back now and used the Windles oil, but I have found of late that it does a vanishing trick over say a period of approx a year, I have had to pop back to a couple of my first customers to do a house visit and on looking at the movements they were just about dry of oil.

i have now switched over to Moebius D5 D4 D3 D2 oils and have seen that they seem to stay within the oil sinks and pivots far better than the Windles.

Mind you at nearly £30 for 20 mls plus P&P its expensive I don't see much change from £150 for all 4!!!!!

[oldhippy]

Artificial heating can cause trouble and never put a clock near any heat of that sort. 

I will stop recommending Windles from now after  what you have said. I was using it back in the 70's and 80's when I was a watch / clockmaker. 

Edited November 9 by oldhippy

[dnhb]

15 hours ago, Rixy said:

The illustration is from Practical Clock Repairing by Donald de Carle. I'm sure OH is familiar with it, as will many others here. It's quite an old book but explains an awful lot.

You cannot move individual wheels. The whole barrel moves (moving just one would create a new tune - all the right notes but not in the right order!)

I'm not sure how it might have happened unless someone in the past tinkered with it or there is slippage in the system.  Have you checked all the teeth and bushings?

When rotating the barrel observe the movement of the hammers. When you see 'four in a row' (1234) that is the quarter past chime. That way, if you get lost you can roll on and find your way back.

Here is a diagram of the front plate from the same book.

Thanks again for this - I'll look out for a copy.

I loosened the ratio wheel & rotated the barrel until the hammer became in line with the others. It worked OK for  an hour or so but then the 3rd hammer stuck in a raised position. Thinking back, I didn't disengage the ratio wheel from the barrel before moving the latter. Is this why the problem has moved to the next hammer & if so can I recover by repeating the process re the 3rd hammer but this time disengaging the Ratio wheel first ?

Edited November 8 by dnhb
Replaced "wheel" by "hammer"

[Rixy]

It's certainly worth a try. When you have the hammers all down, you will see there is a bit of play before the next hammer starts to lift. Try to align the barrel so that it's at a mid-point between the last hammer landing and the next hammer (for the next quarter) lifting.

When you say the third hammer stuck, do you mean it only played 3 out of 4 (or a multiple of 4) notes or that it played 4 notes but that the 4th one was the third hammer?

Edited November 8 by Rixy
Missing word