Questions to ask when looking to buy a staking set

[ClaudioCavalli]

I am starting to look around for a staking set.  What questions should I ask when I have an interest in a set?  For example, I see this set on e-bay and it seems complete to me, but is there any questions I can ask to make sure of what I am getting?  Is the price for such a set reasonable?

I see other sets for less, but they look in much worse shape.  Of course there are cheaper sets (for example this one) with less punches & stumps.  I am a beginner in using the set (as I never owned one) and I was wondering if I should go for the cheaper one with less punches or if I will regret it later.

If there is a post going over this, please let me know.  I looked around a bit and found this one, but it really does not cover what to ask the seller (although pictures of a similar set in the thread lead me to believe that the above one is complete - although something seems to be missing on the 305b and 305c punches).

claudio

Edited October 28 by ClaudioCavalli
added additional text

[oldhippy]

Always when buying second hand make sure that the punches are not blocked and the same goes for the main tool. You do not want to buy one were the main tool has been dropped. 

[Nucejoe]

Furthure to advice from OH, more details has been discussed on WRT, heres one of many.

On 4/10/2014 at 2:13 PM, Mark said:

Beware that any second hand set will have gremlins, sometimes it's good to buy several sets over time, make one good set out of the several sets and then sell the others on.

 

Somthing like this will have most of the stuff you need. 

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/w25-clock-watchmakers-boxed-86-piece-staking-set-excellent-condition-/181372678060?pt=UK_Jewellery_Watches_WatchAccessories_SpareParts_SM&hash=item2a3aa76fac

 

[Knebo]

Hi @ClaudioCavalli, where are you based? US, Europe...?

The ones you picked are on the expensive side, but also very nice, I think.

Especially if you're in Europe, also look for Boley staking sets. They're excellent. The diameter of their stakes is 4.7mm, which is still the most common diameter and you can order replacement stakes, e.g. from CousinsUK. Boley sets can go for 300-400 around here (in Europe). There are also other bands, like Favourite.

The one in your first link also includes reamers. And maybe even pushers for jewelling (is there a micrometer adapter??) -- but it doesn't have pump-pushers, which makes it inferior to a dedicated jewelling set like Horia/Seitz. In terms of the actual punches/stumps, first and second link seem roughly the same. 

Feel free to post more links you find and we can help you choose.

[ClaudioCavalli]

Thank you for all the responses.  I am located in the US and I also realize that buying used might mean that not all pieces are in perfect shape and I might have to buy multiple sets.  The first set really interested me because form the pictures it seems in excellent condition.  I know that it is expensive, but what the heck I don't drink and don't smoke, so I gotta have some other vice!!

I had one questions to the response and that is what do you mean by making sure that the tools an punches are not BLOCKED?  I tried to google it but could not find anything (all responses were about boxing!).

I plan to ask (and not only for these two I listed):

1. If the tool base is aligned (i.e. if when inserted the punch is perfectly vertical to the base).
2. If there is any rust anywhere (not that a little rust would prevent me from buying).
3. If any of the punches are broken, or any of the holes in the punches obstructed.
4. Any of the holes in the die plate obstructed.

Anyway, thank you for you help.

 

claudio

Edited October 28 by ClaudioCavalli

[tomh207]

Blocked punches are when a pivot has been broken off when using and now literally blocks the hole in the punch, not uncommon. This reduces the space available to get the punch over another pivot rendering the punch unusable unless you manage to unblock it.

 

Tom

[TimeWerks]

Hi Claudio, I have the first one you mentioned (K&D Inverto 18R) but a slightly older model (since the depthing gauge on this one looks newer).

 The piece you mentioned that is missing on the 305b and 305c roller table stumps is a black metal strap that goes around the stump and hangs over the edge and would be held in the two empty holes on in the box.  When used on the tool, they would fall into the die hole on the main surface of the tool (I usually put it in the hole in the middle). It holds the stump stable, while you tighten the knurled part under it to close the jaws together.  Not a showstopper, as you could easily make something to do this.

The inverto models are great because you can put stakes upside down in the tool, not just coming down from the top.  That gives you a crazy combination of stumps options available to you.  The other one you showed (model 17) does not have the depthing guage.  It is still a good staking tool, but you would need a Seitz or Horia jeweling tool to complement it, which is totally fine.  Not a bad route to go.  You would also possibly look for additional stakes & stumps that were not available in the 17 set, but keep in mind some stumps and stakes are really not used much anymore.

If money is not an issue, I would go with your first choice, it looks like it is in good shape.  I do not see any blockages, but as previously suggested definitely ask if there are any blockages and if everything is still in alignment.  Are any of the stakes or stumps broken or blocked? Are there any bad rust spots?  Does the knob on the back of the unit work smoothly and lock the base in place?

Get the book "The Watchmakers' Staking Tool" by George G. Lucchina and Archie B. Perkins to help understand how to use all the stakes.

And here are a few useful links to on Staking Tools

https://kanddinverto.weebly.com

https://tadelstein.com/Cross-over-punches.pdf

https://tadelstein.com/Staking Tools and How to Use Them 1910 - 163p BW - S.pdf

Good Luck!

 

[ClaudioCavalli]

Wow,

thank you TimeWerks!  I have been looking for the book for a while, but cannot find it at a reasonable price.  Thank you for the links, and of course money is always an issue, but I figured if I can buy something that will last a lifetime (and then some), I am better off going for it.  What is that saying, buy once cry once?

Anyway, I will have to do some thinking and maybe some more research to see else I can find.

Thank you all for your help.

claudio

P.S. TimeWerks, hope everything is OK with you.  My wife's parents and sisters live in Punta Gorda and were direcly in the path of the last hurricane.  Luckily they suffered no damage.

Here is another set that claims to have no duplicates.  It seems that there is more variety of punches and that the original I posted may have some duplicates.  Anyway, I will have to take a closer look tonight.

claudio

Edited October 28 by ClaudioCavalli

[gpraceman]

On 10/27/2024 at 9:37 PM, ClaudioCavalli said:

I am starting to look around for a staking set.  What questions should I ask when I have an interest in a set?  For example, I see this set on e-bay and it seems complete to me, but is there any questions I can ask to make sure of what I am getting?  Is the price for such a set reasonable?

I see other sets for less, but they look in much worse shape.  Of course there are cheaper sets (for example this one) with less punches & stumps.  I am a beginner in using the set (as I never owned one) and I was wondering if I should go for the cheaper one with less punches or if I will regret it later.

If there is a post going over this, please let me know.  I looked around a bit and found this one, but it really does not cover what to ask the seller (although pictures of a similar set in the thread lead me to believe that the above one is complete - although something seems to be missing on the 305b and 305c punches).

claudio

I learned a lot from this site about K&D staking sets.  You can find out exactly what stakes, stumps and accessories originally came with their more modern sets.

https://kanddinverto.weebly.com/

What I found with sets on eBay was that they often came with duplicate stakes, stakes from other manufacturers, and missing pieces.  Sellers will not typically list the particular stakes that come with the set.  You can ask them to provide you a list.  Compare that to the stakes that would have originally come with the set.  Steer clear of rusty sets.  Some of the holes in the stakes are really small and hard to clean out any corrosion from.

That K&D 18R Deluxe set you list is missing some things.  There should be two balance staff removers that will fit the frame, one for smaller sized balance staffs (wristwatches) and one for larger size balance staffs (pocket watches).  One of the balance staff removers is too short for that frame.  There should be two stakes that go with those removers (small diameter tip for wristwatches and larger diameter tip for pocket watches).  There should be 10 screw knocking sub punches in the small set of holes, plus the holder.  Those are all missing (those sub punches are often missing).  One of the canon pinon closing punches is missing (an incorrect stake is in its place).  The first reamer looks broken. For that style of roller table removers, there should be a small rod to tighten those.  Maybe it's there in the bottom of the box, but not shown?

Personally, I think it better to get a Seitz set for jeweling and reaming operations than have the staking set do those on top of staking operations.  I bought a nearly complete 18R Deluxe set off of eBay and then found a nearly complete 600 Series set locally for a too good to pass up price.  In the end, I kept the 600 series set, got a Seitz set and sold the 18R Deluxe set.

This is the set that I kept:

[Knebo]

55 minutes ago, gpraceman said:

Personally, I think it better to get a Seitz set for jeweling and reaming operations than have the staking set do those on top of staking operations

Agreed

[TimeWerks]

Great observations gpraceman!  I agree that when it comes to jewel work I turn to a Seitz or Horia tool since that is what they are primarily designed for. But if you only had the one tool, the 18R set can do a lot for you.  It takes time to find tools that are in good condition and complete.  I used my 18R until I was lucky enough to find a Seitz tool that was in decent shape with all the bits.  I still have the 18R jeweling option available as a backup.

Claudio, You should have the two balance staff removers as mentioned, along with the two stakes that go with those removers.  K&D sold them to owners of older sets as a separate kit which you can often find on ebay.  One of the staff removers in the first set was from one of these kits. (The kit is the blue box, which is missing one of the holders). One caveat: Sometimes you need to cut out the old staff using a lathe instead of this tool, or you risk warping the balance.

The sub punches were available in the Deluxe version of the 18R, but were also sold separately.  You are buying a used staking set so it is very unlikely all the pieces are original or even there.  Try and find a set that is the most complete and in good shape, and later you will find stakes or another staking tool that is incomplete that you can use to supplement your set.  You don't need to get an 18R,  just find a staking set you are happy with in functionality and appearance and that fits your financial situation.  I gave a small set of 20 stakes and base to someone starting out in watchmaking and it was all he needed at that point in time.

I did not inherit a completely original set.  My dad acquired stakes and stumps along the way, and so did I.  Several of those stakes and stumps have moved to a different set since I don't use them as often (like working on cylinder balance staffs and making oil sinks). To be honest, there are a lot of stakes I never use.  Good luck, take your time, enjoy the journey!

 

[JohnR725]

22 hours ago, ClaudioCavalli said:

I am located in the US

depending upon where you live in the US you might have a chapter of the national Association of watch and clock collectors. They have chapters scattered across the US which have meetings which often times sell things. Then more interesting is the regional meetings were multiple chapters come together and there is way more stuff being sold. Then if you're really lucky you can go to a national meeting which is really big. Before eBay this was one of the best sources I have for buying stuff eBay of course is now cut this but still a lot of these people don't trust eBay

https://www.nawcc.org/

 

[ClaudioCavalli]

Thank you all for all the great information.  I did ask the list of stumps and stakes in the first link provided, and I was told that it is not available, so I am staying away from it.  The other 18R seems to have pitting and some rust on the center of the die plate, so I am staying away form it.

I decided to wait around and see if anything else pops up, and I will probably look for a 600 set or perhaps an 18/18A set.

I do have an additional question.  It seems some staking sets have the die plate that can only rotate (like the K&Ds), whereas others seem to have one that in addition to rotating, can also move on the horizontal plane (like the Bergeon).  Why is this.  Any advantages to either design?

Again, thank you all for the invaluable advice.

claudio 

[gpraceman]

In terms of 18R Deluxe sets, this one is the most complete one that I have seen, if you don't mind dropping that much money.  They even provide a list of the included stakes.  I do see some rust, but it doesn't look bad.  I'd strip down the frame, derust and reblue the appropriate parts.  Derust and steel wool the other parts, then lightly oil.  Should clean up well. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/146132207061

I still think, that a better option is a non-deluxe set, paired with a Seitz set, roller table removers and balance staff removers.

Try to check locally.  See if there's a watchmakers/clockmakers club near you (like NAWCC in the US) and get to know the members.  Go into jewelry stores and ask if they have old watchmaker's tools they want to get rid of.  That's how I found my Series 600 staking set, from a jewelry store up in a small mountain town.

13 hours ago, ClaudioCavalli said:

I do have an additional question.  It seems some staking sets have the die plate that can only rotate (like the K&Ds), whereas others seem to have one that in addition to rotating, can also move on the horizontal plane (like the Bergeon).  Why is this.  Any advantages to either design?

It is nice to have a die plate that can float a bit, so you can get a perfect alignment with the centering stake.  If the frame was dropped and that skewed the top of the frame just a hair, that centering ability would be key.  The 18R frame that I had, as well as the Series 600 frame have the float ability.

23 hours ago, TimeWerks said:

Great observations gpraceman!  I agree that when it comes to jewel work I turn to a Seitz or Horia tool since that is what they are primarily designed for. But if you only had the one tool, the 18R set can do a lot for you.  It takes time to find tools that are in good condition and complete.  I used my 18R until I was lucky enough to find a Seitz tool that was in decent shape with all the bits.  I still have the 18R jeweling option available as a backup.

Claudio, You should have the two balance staff removers as mentioned, along with the two stakes that go with those removers.  K&D sold them to owners of older sets as a separate kit which you can often find on ebay.  One of the staff removers in the first set was from one of these kits. (The kit is the blue box, which is missing one of the holders). One caveat: Sometimes you need to cut out the old staff using a lathe instead of this tool, or you risk warping the balance.

The sub punches were available in the Deluxe version of the 18R, but were also sold separately.  You are buying a used staking set so it is very unlikely all the pieces are original or even there.  Try and find a set that is the most complete and in good shape, and later you will find stakes or another staking tool that is incomplete that you can use to supplement your set.  You don't need to get an 18R,  just find a staking set you are happy with in functionality and appearance and that fits your financial situation.  I gave a small set of 20 stakes and base to someone starting out in watchmaking and it was all he needed at that point in time.

I did not inherit a completely original set.  My dad acquired stakes and stumps along the way, and so did I.  Several of those stakes and stumps have moved to a different set since I don't use them as often (like working on cylinder balance staffs and making oil sinks). To be honest, there are a lot of stakes I never use.  Good luck, take your time, enjoy the journey!

 

For those that don't know, the 18R Deluxe set has a collection of different K&D accessories sets.  The label on the staking set holder gives a clue to the K&D part#s for the accessories sets (roller table removers, balance staff removers, jeweling, reaming, sub punches, canon pinion tighteners).  You can occasionally find such individual sets on eBay.

Personally, I would not store a centering punch tip down.  Proper centering is key, so that tip should be treated with the utmost care.

Edited October 30 by gpraceman

[ClaudioCavalli]

gpraceman,

I was looking at that set and I was thinking about it.  I am not sure if I want to do a restore.  There are a few days left on that item, so I have time to think more about it (of course there is always the danger that someone else will buy it).

Do all of the 18R sets have a floating die plate?  If not, is there an easy way to tell if it does?

clauido

[gpraceman]

2 hours ago, ClaudioCavalli said:

gpraceman,

I was looking at that set and I was thinking about it.  I am not sure if I want to do a restore.  There are a few days left on that item, so I have time to think more about it (of course there is always the danger that someone else will buy it).

Do all of the 18R sets have a floating die plate?  If not, is there an easy way to tell if it does?

clauido

To me, that set doesn't need that much work.  Soak the parts in some Evaporust for a day.  Rinse with water and immediately dry them thoroughly with a hair dryer.  Spin each stake in a drill and rub with them with some fine steel wool.  Check the holes in the stakes and stumps and clean them out with a fine needle or broach.  Put the parts on some paper towels, sprinkle some oil onto them, then rub them around, leaving just a fine coat of oil on them.  With any vintage tool that I get, I do a derusting, cleaning and oiling as needed to make sure they will usable far into the future.

I believe any of the Invertos will have a floating die plate.  For those, the central hub that the die plate spins on seems a bit undersized, to allow that floating.

[ClaudioCavalli]

I have not made up my mind, but of course I will pass on it and no other viable option will be listed for the next 6 months. 

 

What about something like this: Chinese Staking Set.

 

claudio

[ClaudioCavalli]

Of course it would be probably better to buy it here.  Even with shipping it is much cheaper.

Edited November 2 by ClaudioCavalli

[ClaudioCavalli]

Ok found this on the quality Chinese tool thread, so i guess i’ll have to dish out for a inverto.

 

[ClaudioCavalli]

What about this set:  New set.  Although it appears to be tje first item listed by this seller and that migh be a red flag.

claudio

[gpraceman]

49 minutes ago, ClaudioCavalli said:

What about this set:  New set.  Although it appears to be tje first item listed by this seller and that migh be a red flag.

claudio

Looks to be a very nice set.  Seems to only be missing one of the reamers, which would make it the most complete set that I've seen.  Hadn't seen a set with a K&D plate on the front.  I do find the screws in the case lid a bit odd.  Certainly not cheap, but I have seen sets not as nice go for more.  That'll probably be gone fast.

That the seller doesn't have any sales history is concerning, but you do have some protection from eBay.  Might want to ask the seller for some additional photos, like a closer view of the stakes to see what the condition of their tips are.  If the seller cannot provide more photos, that would be a huge red flag.  I had found a nice staking set on Etsy but did a search of eBay's past sales and found the exact set there.  Seller had just stolen the photos and description.  I found other items from the seller that were just copied off of eBay past sales.  The seller would not provide additional photos to prove they were in possession of the set.

If you do end up getting a set and have it shipped to you, the seller needs to carefully package up the set.  You can't just throw some packing material in the case and hope that pieces will stay in their place.  That would risk breaking parts, like the reamers.  Parts should be bagged up and protected with packing material.

Edited November 3 by gpraceman

[mbwatch]

7 minutes ago, gpraceman said:

I do find the screws in the case lid a bit odd.

The wooden boxes of both my staking and jeweling sets have weakened and wobbly joints I've been meaning to repair. I would just assume this was a quick fix for a similar issue.

[gpraceman]

1 minute ago, mbwatch said:

The wooden boxes of both my staking and jeweling sets have weakened and wobbly joints I've been meaning to repair. I would just assume this was a quick fix for a similar issue.

Probably so.  I would have just used a needle applicator to inject some glue, but that's me.

[linux]

If there are no red flags, I would say that's a very nice set for the asking price.  If I was in the market I would snap it up!

[gpraceman]

2 hours ago, linux said:

If there are no red flags, I would say that's a very nice set for the asking price.  If I was in the market I would snap it up!

I hope that your staking set is working out well for you.